First highway run; engine bogs at 60

tzimmerm · Apr 26, 2018

Okay! Lots of info, but trying to be thorough and give you as much relevant info as possible. So, today I rode the bike to work, and after work I rode 25 thriugh town for about 5 minutes, 55 mph on a highway for about 3 minutes to the interstate, and then hopped on the interstate to make it to an appt with my chiro. Bike accelerated fine, got to 5th gear and around 60, and it just started slowing down. Not as if I completely lost power, but it wouldn’t go any faster than 50-55. I opened up full throttle, then let off. As the bike slowed to around 50, power kind of sputtered back in until around 55. It kept sputtering right around 50-55. I rode it that way to the exit I needed to take, about 1 mile. The road off the interstate to the chiro was 35 the whole way. It did fine. After the appointment I Went home and checked the plugs. They looked perfect. Took pics for everyone. Checked the oil. Looks like I somehow overfilled it a little the other night when i changed out the screens and oil. I drained some. To be clear, you check the oil level with the bike on the centerstand and the dipstick NOT threaded in, correct? Just stick it straight in the hole to where the threads start? I wiped some oil off the side of the engine and there was some yellowish oil looking stuff on the
Bottom of the carb
Bowls. I tried taking a pic of it on my finger for the forum. I checked the cam chain tensioner. Tightened it just a tiny bit, to where I could see and feel The little button move in and out with the tip of my finger with the bike idling.
I also noticed that at some point the chain has eaten through about 1/4 inch of the oil seal on the swingarm. I don’t think it was my new chain because I don’t see any wear on the chain. Took a pic of that as well. So after all this I figure I’ll see if maybe somehow the oul beimg overfilled could have been causing the problem. I took the bike down a 55 mph highway. Again, everything worked as it should. Tried to test it and tried pushing to 60, and it started bogging down again. I pulled over, looked at the carbs real quick, and turned around to head home. It did backfire a tiny bit as I decelerated from 55-45, but overall performed as it seemed like it ought to the whole way home. All of this was on a full tank of new premium gas I bought three days ago with a whole bottle of O’reilly auto house brand octane booster. It seems like a fuel related problem, but I wanted to see if anyonenhas any other ideas based on the info I provided. Also, the engine is weeping oil just a bit, mostly on the left side. I have the four copper washers from mikes to replace the stock rubber infused head bolts, and I intend to retorque the head, hoping that will stop the leaks. It looks like I’ll have to remove the gas tank to get access the all the head bolts with my torque wrench. What is the procedure for this? Cold engine? Do I warm up engine? Take it for a ride or let it idle for a bit? I also have new rubber intakes and intake gaskets from mikes, as I noticed the right side intake gasket looks wet after riding a bit. Maybe air is getting sucked in at around 60 and bigging it down? Last thing, I tried tightening my chain according to the instructions on the forum; had someone my weight sit on my bike while I adjusted the tension with the wheel adjuster screws to where the chain had about 3/4 “ slack, but when I roll it I can hear the chain binding just a little. I feel like if I loosen it up any more it will be too loose, and now that I’ve noticed the worn swingarm washer, I’m even more apprehensive to loosen it. I made sure to line up the marks on the wheel adjusters equally right and left with the lines on the swingarm dropouts. What’s going on? Is it just too tight? Do I loosen it some more until it doent make this sound? I think that’s everything. Summary questions-
1-How to properly re torque head with new copper washers?
2-Did I check oil Properly?
3-What do you think is making my bike bog down in 5th around 55-60
4-Please Don’t tell me I can’t ride with the swingarm this way. I don’t want to pull it off and can’t afford the whole swingarm bushing thing right now
5-getting proper chain tension

bluesman650 · Apr 27, 2018

tzimmerm said:
View attachment 117485 View attachment 117484 View attachment 117483 View attachment 117482 View attachment 117480 Okay! Lots of info, but trying to be thorough and give you as much relevant info as possible. So, today I rode the bike to work, and after work I rode 25 thriugh town for about 5 minutes, 55 mph on a highway for about 3 minutes to the interstate, and then hopped on the interstate to make it to an appt with my chiro. Bike accelerated fine, got to 5th gear and around 60, and it just started slowing down. Not as if I completely lost power, but it wouldn’t go any faster than 50-55. I opened up full throttle, then let off. As the bike slowed to around 50, power kind of sputtered back in until around 55. It kept sputtering right around 50-55. I rode it that way to the exit I needed to take, about 1 mile. The road off the interstate to the chiro was 35 the whole way. It did fine. After the appointment I Went home and checked the plugs. They looked perfect. Took pics for everyone. Checked the oil. Looks like I somehow overfilled it a little the other night when i changed out the screens and oil. I drained some. To be clear, you check the oil level with the bike on the centerstand and the dipstick NOT threaded in, correct? Just stick it straight in the hole to where the threads start? I wiped some oil off the side of the engine and there was some yellowish oil looking stuff on the
Bottom of the carb
Bowls. I tried taking a pic of it on my finger for the forum. I checked the cam chain tensioner. Tightened it just a tiny bit, to where I could see and feel The little button move in and out with the tip of my finger with the bike idling.
I also noticed that at some point the chain has eaten through about 1/4 inch of the oil seal on the swingarm. I don’t think it was my new chain because I don’t see any wear on the chain. Took a pic of that as well. So after all this I figure I’ll see if maybe somehow the oul beimg overfilled could have been causing the problem. I took the bike down a 55 mph highway. Again, everything worked as it should. Tried to test it and tried pushing to 60, and it started bogging down again. I pulled over, looked at the carbs real quick, and turned around to head home. It did backfire a tiny bit as I decelerated from 55-45, but overall performed as it seemed like it ought to the whole way home. All of this was on a full tank of new premium gas I bought three days ago with a whole bottle of O’reilly auto house brand octane booster. It seems like a fuel related problem, but I wanted to see if anyonenhas any other ideas based on the info I provided. Also, the engine is weeping oil just a bit, mostly on the left side. I have the four copper washers from mikes to replace the stock rubber infused head bolts, and I intend to retorque the head, hoping that will stop the leaks. It looks like I’ll have to remove the gas tank to get access the all the head bolts with my torque wrench. What is the procedure for this? Cold engine? Do I warm up engine? Take it for a ride or let it idle for a bit? I also have new rubber intakes and intake gaskets from mikes, as I noticed the right side intake gasket looks wet after riding a bit. Maybe air is getting sucked in at around 60 and bigging it down? Last thing, I tried tightening my chain according to the instructions on the forum; had someone my weight sit on my bike while I adjusted the tension with the wheel adjuster screws to where the chain had about 3/4 “ slack, but when I roll it I can hear the chain binding just a little. I feel like if I loosen it up any more it will be too loose, and now that I’ve noticed the worn swingarm washer, I’m even more apprehensive to loosen it. I made sure to line up the marks on the wheel adjusters equally right and left with the lines on the swingarm dropouts. What’s going on? Is it just too tight? Do I loosen it some more until it doent make this sound? I think that’s everything. Summary questions-
1-How to properly re torque head with new copper washers?
2-Did I check oil Properly?
3-What do you think is making my bike bog down in 5th around 55-60
4-Please Don’t tell me I can’t ride with the swingarm this way. I don’t want to pull it off and can’t afford the whole swingarm bushing thing right now
5-getting proper chain tension

Sounds like it could be fuel starvation. I would check filter screens first then float level. Yes you are checking your oil correctly. Do you have a manual? It will show you the proper sequence. Not sure what you're talking about with the swingarm.

MaxPete · Apr 27, 2018

Agreed - sounds like fuel.

I wonder if your tank vent is working / blocked? There should be a tiny vent hole in the fuel tank lid (it is NOT visible from the outside chrome upper surface) to allow air in as fuel flows out. If that vent is partially blocked, the fuel will be prevented from flowing out and down to the carb float bowls, Have a look and make sure that it is clear.

This is not a likely scenario however - it is more likely to be a filter blockage.

gggGary · Apr 27, 2018

Do the head retorque NOW. it's completley covered here http://www.xs650.com/threads/head-bolt-retorque.2034/ Yes gas tank and top engine mount need to come off.
Did you replace sprockets with the chain? What chain did you buy? Put bike on center stand rotate rear wheel, watch the chain slack does it vary? Chains typically need a first adjustment after a few miles as the factory grease moves around.
Would be nice to see an overall shot of the bike so we have an idea of what intake, carbs, exhaust, shocks etc you are running.
Is the 60MPH thing new, did it just start? Drain float bowls into a clean container what do you see? Spray some carb cleaner around intakes while its idling does the idle change? Do a slide drop test. Do a plug chop WHEN it's missing. Plug appearance after a few miles of 35MPH don't show much info about running 20 minutes ago. quick guess only the mains are lean.

tzimmerm · Apr 27, 2018

Updates/ answers to questions-
I DID visially inspect the gas tank vent, and I opened the lid right after riding home to listen for a vacuum hiss; there was none. I did not replace the sprockets, though I do have a set of new ones. I bought the 20.00 chain from ebay that another member suggested in my other thread, I think the chain sprocket thread. The sprockets on the bike look fine; no sharp points, each tooth has a flat peak. As far as I know, everything on the bike is original/ stock. I’ll try to take some pics this morning of the bike and carbs for reference. There are shots of the bike with the new bars in my earlier “let’s see the xs’s” thread. Noone must have seen that post though, because I didnt get any comments or compliments on the bars, lol. This was the first highway speed run I have taken ever. I do agree it feels like a fuel issue. I have seen the head-bolt torque pattern here and have it in my clymer; my question was if I do the retorque on a warm or cold engine.

gggGary · Apr 27, 2018

Well by the time the tank and top engine mounts are off, cool it is, LOL I've always done it cold But I tend to do it before I even try to start "sleeping beauty" Yeah spin that wheel watch slack. $20 chain.....
Tim we tend to see, answer questions on at least DOZENS of bikes week in, week out, year in year out ,it becomes a blur and I ain't getting younger, I keep a log book on my bikes (4 gusting 5 running XS's at this time and lots of other "spark plugs") cause a month or two later I have no idea which got the oil change, tire pressure check chain replacement etc.
A friend of mine brings up that "spark plug = time sink". Every installed spark plug you own represents a certain amount of maintenance work every year, how many plugs do you have? For me an easy 40, many on older higher maintenance equipment, IF I don't look at dormant projects!
Were we chatting last spring about this bike and front end parts?

XSLeo · Apr 27, 2018

You might just need to remove the carbs, tear down, clean. Check and adjust as you reassemble. www.amckayltd.com/carbguide.pdf will help.
The carb guide will help you ID your carbs and gives you the steps to tear down, clean, inspect, adjust, reassemble your carbs.
I might suggest reading it, print it out, read it, read it again. Maybe even read it a few more times, then start the process by following the steps.
Leo

tzimmerm · Apr 27, 2018

I’m hoping it’s as simple as this. like I mentioned, I do have new rubber intakes and intake gaskets from mike’s ready to put on. I think I’ll start by just taking the carbs off to replace the intakes, and spray some carb cleaner through the carbs and take a test run after that. Rebuilding the carbs is not a project I am excited about at this point. I Don’t want any more parts bills or down time at this point that isnt absolutely necessary. It idles a little funny, too. After warming up, when riding around town like on the way to work this morning (I’m at work now) it idles around 1.5 rpms at stoplights. Is this good? Where do I want the idle? I tried playing with the idle screw at stoplights, but any lower than 1.5 at idle and it starts getting a little rough where it seems like it may die, and it’s also really hard to get it to cold start. I stopped and chatted with the PO I bought it from, and he seemed surprised it was bogging down. He said he’s ridden it a couple hundred miles the last three years while he owned it, and apparently didnt have any trouble. Def seems like a dirty carbs issue.

weekendrider · Apr 27, 2018

Will it redline in fourth?

tzimmerm · Apr 27, 2018

I’ve been intentionally keeping the revs below 5-6 because I’m new to riding AND new to this bike, and I just don’t like hearing it rev that high. I’ll try it when I get off work this afternoon at 5:00.

tzimmerm · Apr 27, 2018

Since we’re on the topic and inevitably I WILL have to rebuild the carbs, (hopefully later rather than sooner) is there a common preference for a carb rebuild Kit? Any known “quality” or “trash” kits out there? I might as well order one today to have it when I need it.

5twins · Apr 27, 2018

It does sound like your carbs could use a cleaning. The hard cold starting probably means your choke jets are plugged. They draw fuel in from near the bottom of the bowl and are one of the first things to plug up if there's gunk in the bowls. When checking a set of carbs to see how clean they are, I like to drop the float bowls, carbs still in place, using a stubby screwdriver. I leave them full of fuel because I want to see what's floating around in there. What I discover usually tells me whether or not they require further cleaning.

I think all the aftermarket rebuild kits are "trash". Parts don't fit or are actually wrong, jet sizes are wrong many times as well. Original parts are best but you usually don't need much, if any. If you're careful and don't break them, the float bowl gaskets can be re-used virtually forever. I still have the originals on my '78.

5twins · Apr 27, 2018

The chewed up oil seal on the swingarm is typical. Most are like that. If the chain is allowed to get too loose, that's what happens, and it obviously will get loose from time to time.

tzimmerm · Apr 27, 2018

Thanks for the insight on the swingarm 5twins; that’s what I wanted to hear. As far as the rough idle at cold start, the problem is actually that I can start it with the choke on, but after around a minute, it will die if I LEAVE the choke on, and I have to turn the choke off and nurse the throttle a little with the choke off. There seems to be a gap in between choke on and regular throttle where it won’t idle on it’s own, it dies. After nursing it or just turning the idle screw a little higher, it evens out. After riding around town at 25 and idling/stopping a lot, I have had to turn down the idle screw at a light because then it’s idling around 1.5-2. It’s like having the choke on is too much and kills it, but when I turn it off regular idle isn’t enough and it dies. Any tricks or advice for “prepping” the carbs to be disassembled “carefully” to reatin original gaskets?

tzimmerm · Apr 27, 2018

God damnit. I took the bike about 2 miles down the road for lunch and it died on me in the middle of an intersection. Hope I make it back to work. It basically won’t idle. I have to keep giving it gas ir it dies.

5twins · Apr 27, 2018

That's typical as well. You can't use the choke for too long or it will stall out. Then, until warmed up a bit, you'll have to nurse it, keep the throttle cracked open a hair. And yes, idle speed will be higher once fully warmed up. Idle speed spec for these is 1200 RPMs and they like/need it. Try idling it down at 8 or 900 and it can randomly stall. Much higher than 1200 and the ignition can start into it's advance phase and that will increase the idle speed even more. So, it takes some fiddling and tuning to find that "just right" speed setting where it won't stall cold but won't idle too high once warm. Start by setting your idle speed at 1200 when the bike is fully warmed up. That should allow it to stay idling at about 1000 when cold or just a little warm, with an occasional little throttle blip applied.

When you try to remove the float bowl, lift it off just slightly and see if the gasket is sticking to some parts of both the bowl and carb body. If it is, break it free from one of the other with a small knife. I leave mine stuck to one or the other surface, I never completely remove them. When I reassemble, I wet the gasket down with some light lube like WD40 to prevent it from sticking the next time I pull it apart.

tzimmerm · Apr 27, 2018

Okay, so this just killed my mood. I started the bike with the choke on. I have a half hour for lunch so I don’t have time to sit around and let the bike warm up. I was going down the toad about 2-3 miles for panera which would be ready and waiting since I ordered online. It kept dying so I just kept starting it with the choke off, giving it throttle. I hopped on and forced it to go. Went 35 down about a 1/2 mile road to the main road to panera. It died on me while I was stopped to turn right. I started it and took a right onto the 45 mph road. Rode that about 3/4 of a mile to the stoplight. At that stop It was idling way high, like 5-6, but when I put it in gear it acted normal. Then another light, to turn left. It dies on me in 1st gear in the middle of the 4 way intersection. I had to walk it to the parking lot. I was barely able to start it, pulled to the OTHER parking lot where panera was, ran in and ate my lunch fast. Headed back, I had to keep giving it throttle around 3-4 rpms or it would die. There were several occasions where it seemed like it would idle ok, at least a little
More even, but the rythm wasnt right. At this point I’m just trying to get back to work, and I gun it up to 4th to go 45. But when I let off the throttle at 45, there wasn't any difference from when I was GIVING it throttle. I approach the red light for the left turn back to work. This morning it wouldn't turn for me because i don’t weigh enough, so I dexided to turn right amd pull a u turn so I could go straight across at the next change. The bike revs up to 5-6 after I let off the throttle, and stays there for about 8 seconds. Then it dips down to where it’s going to die, so i gove it just a little throttle, and again, it revs up to 5-6 rpms and stays there. When I put it in gear it’s stumbling, but I manage to turn around and wait for the light. It dies. I barely get it started and I ride 40 down the road, in 3rd gear. Again, I’m not goving it any throttle but it’s pulling itself in 3rd. It behaved nothing like this yesterday, and thank goodness for that. I’ll be lucky to get it Home today after work.

Brassneck · Apr 27, 2018

The idle on these bikes are a bit finicky. Usually, about a min on choke on a cold start is what I do...then when it starts to stumble, off with the choke until it's warmed up. No choke for starting thereafter...unless it's been sitting for more than a few hours (If it's cold out). I use to adjust the idle all the time while riding, but as it gets warmer and creeps to 2000, I'd have to adjust it down again, with my goal of ending in the 1200 range after a bit of riding. This is pretty typical with these bikes...however, after many years of riding, I've now just set the idle to just below 1200 cold...and baby the throttle until it's warmed up, with no adjustments to the idle. It typically ends up around 1500 throughout the day and I'm ok with it.

As to your bogging...my first guess is also fuel related. A slow blockage (float valves perhaps or the float heights aren't set correctly). So I'd check those (really easy to do, but does involve taking the carbs off. And if you're doing that, might as well clean them really well. My hunch is that the valve or floats are sticking, and limiting the amount of fuel you should have. At lower speeds, the fuel may be trickling in/bowl is full enough to run without issue, but trying to get up in speeds and draw in more fuel could cause your bogging as you don't have enough fuel. It could even be a clog in your petcocks...might even start there.

Last summer when I was racing my little vintage honda, I was ripping around just fine, then got on the straights and in top gear, wide open...I started to bog. Came back around the turns and did just fine on corners, etc...all gears were great 2, 3, 4th...then came to the straights and bog city. Once the race was over (didn't finish well as you can imagine), I was stumped and was checking for clogged jets, etc... but finally realized I was way low on fuel. I had forgotten to fill my tank from the previous race. I had just enough to keep the bowls filled when I was in the lower gears, but wide open, just didn't have enough fuel in the bowls for the demand.

If it was bogging in other gears, hanging idle or popping all the time, I would lean towards other carb issues, jetting, or even electrical, etc. But my sense is fuel quantity.

Good luck!

Brassneck · Apr 27, 2018

tzimmerm said:
The bike revs up to 5-6 after I let off the throttle, and stays there for about 8 seconds. Then it dips down to where it’s going to die, so i gove it just a little throttle, and again, it revs up to 5-6 rpms and stays there.

Time to clean those carbs.

Paul Sutton · Apr 27, 2018

As pointed out above do not leave the choke fully on for any significant time or the engine will die. The idle screw should be set when the bike has warmed up properly which will take a few minutes riding - 5 to 10 minutes. If you set the idle screw cold then the idle will be high when the bike warms up. This gives the problem of how to keep the idle nice when the engine is cold and the choke is off. My solution is to cut a lot of 2cm squares out of a cardboard cereal box. When you are ready to start the bike put one square under the throttle lever on the carburetor. This will open the throttle slightly and give a nice idle speed of about 1500rpm cold. When you get ready to ride off the square will automatically drop out when you open the throttle. Downside, your drive will be littered with little squares. Of course my bike is an 81 with BS34s which are linked together on a common shaft so one piece of cardboard opens both carbs by a small fraction. I cannot remember if this technique is as easily implemented on the other carburetor setups.

First highway run; engine bogs at 60

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