Flat Spot off Idle

The rubber seal is supposed to snap onto that lip just above the brass hex "nut" shown in your 2nd pic. It should stay there with the plunger shaft sliding up and down through it.

Yeah, that's what I thought and where the seal is (see first photo). But it pops right outta that channel as soon as I operate the choke lever (see second photo).

A light smear of white lithium grease works well for lubing the intake boots and carb spigots. That's what I used to use before I got specific rubber lubes (red rubber grease or SIL-Glyde).

Ugh. I was holding a tube of that very Sil-Glyde in my hand at the auto parts yesterday, thinking I'd read a recommendation for it here. But I couldn't remember the exact name, so I asked the store mgr if it was a "silicone grease", but he said no. So I grabbed the dielectric grease instead. It's always something....Ugh..
 
di-electric is fine if a bit pricy, it's my goto for diaphragms.

Finally, some good news. It'll save me a trip back to the auto parts store. Thanks, Gary!

Next update, which'll probably be Sunday due to rain predicted tomorrow, will hopefully be more good news.
'Til then, again, either way, many thanks to All for your great input and helpful direction.
 
Update...

The cold start (choke) lever now feels like a well-regulated Rolex (i.e., operates positively and smooth as butter), but, otherwise NO CHANGE with the engine performance. None. No better, no worse.

The left cylinder--the one with the piston that BARELY passes the piston drop-test (piston drops in ~3~4 seconds)--purrs like a kitten!
The right cylinder--the one that PASSES the drop-test with flying colours (piston drops in ~14~15 seconds)--burbles/misses whilst idling and backfires when I rev the engine and let the RPMs're drop. It also doesn't stall when I turn the mixture screw in all the way.

Unfortunately, in my frustration, I neglected to repeat the carb cleaner test around the new JBM carb holders (manifolds) to see if they at least solved the air ingress in that area. But everything down there's both clean, new and snug (not over-tight). I just don't see how air could possibly be leaking around those manifolds or the carb-to-manifold interfaces?

Where next?
 
Well, if you can turn the mix screw in all the way and it doesn't kill that right cylinder (it should), that would seem to indicate an overly rich condition, not lean. Closing the mix screw cuts off approximately 25% of the fuel/air mix flow coming from the pilot jet, and that's usually enough to stall that cylinder. There's a few things that might cause the rich mix. Maybe a damaged mix screw tip or seat in the hole it screws into. Maybe you could compare the 2 mix screw tips, see if they look any different. Maybe swap them carb to carb and see if it makes any difference. Too high of a fuel level in the bowl would make it run rich too. If you're using an aftermarket pilot jet, maybe it's size is off. Also, is it the proper type (BS30/96) for your carb set?

Then there's also the possibility that the carb is just plain worn out, internal passageways have worn larger and are passing more fuel. It happens.
 
Well, if you can turn the mix screw in all the way and it doesn't kill that right cylinder (it should), that would seem to indicate an overly rich condition, not lean. Closing the mix screw cuts off approximately 25% of the fuel/air mix flow coming from the pilot jet, and that's usually enough to stall that cylinder.

When I engage the cold start (press choke lever down), the right side runs much better...almost normal. Doesn't the choke enrich the mix?


There's a few things that might cause the rich mix. Maybe a damaged mix screw tip or seat in the hole it screws into. Maybe you could compare the 2 mix screw tips, see if they look any different. Maybe swap them carb to carb and see if it makes any difference.

The screw tips, themselves, are fine. Remember, I've now gone through two sets of rebuild kits from two different vendors and, although not impossible, I think it's nearly so for two different screws from different vendors to cause the same problem, especially, since the problem's limited to one carb and both now have the same new internal components (i.e., jets, needles, seals, gaskets, etc.). The only deviations from the rebuild parts are: 1) I replaced the diaphragm in the carb on the good (left) side (with a JBM diaphragm) because it didn't appear to be holding a good vacuum (even with the JBM, the piston drops in ~3~4 seconds with the oval port blocked (carb on the bad side, with new (ebay-purchased) piston/diaphragm, drops in ~15 seconds)); and 2) per recommendation, I swapped-out the rebuild kit's "Y22" stamped needles (which are the same type of needle that's been in there for the past several years) for Mikuni 4JN19 needles in both carbs.
I'll check the current screw's tip again and I guess I can disassemble the right carb and re-clean all of its internal journals again, but, having done this already five or more times, my gut tells me the problem's elsewhere. But, as I'm outta options, I'll give it a try..


Too high of a fuel level in the bowl would make it run rich too. If you're using an aftermarket pilot jet, maybe it's size is off. Also, is it the proper type (BS30/96) for your carb set?

The floats're set to 24mm (OEM spec), measured from the base of the carb body (sans gasket) to the top of the float. The jets in both rebuild kits (42.5 and #130) were the same size as the ones that've been in there for the past several years and, according to the Yamaha Service Manual, they're correct.


Then there's also the possibility that the carb is just plain worn out, internal passageways have worn larger and are passing more fuel. It happens.

I considered that as well, but, because the bike was running fine until I didn't use it for four or five months, "wear" doesn't really make sense. My gut tells me that something's gotta be either gummed-up/blocked, corroded or leaking. Could months of non-use coupled with high humidity and heat cause one of the sets of points to've become oxidized, rusted or something like that that could cause the backfiring and rough idling?
 

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Well yes, do some ignition "snooping". If a condenser has gone bad, it could cause symptoms like you're having. A good "tell" for that is if the points set is sparking excessively as it operates. A few random sparks are normal but constant big time sparking is not. It would be easier to observe this in a darkened garage. Compare the amount of sparking between the right (bad) side points set and the good running left side set. If you've got it wired like stock, the top set of points should be powering the right cylinder, bottom set the left .....

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Well yes, do some ignition "snooping". If a condenser has gone bad, it could cause symptoms like you're having. A good "tell" for that is if the points set is sparking excessively as it operates. A few random sparks are normal but constant big time sparking is not. It would be easier to observe this in a darkened garage. Compare the amount of sparking between the right (bad) side points set and the good running left side set. If you've got it wired like stock, the top set of points should be powering the right cylinder, bottom set the left .....

Excellent! The ignition's all stock. I'll test tomorrow and report back. Many thanks 5twins!!

I gotta say, although I generally enjoy working on these carbs (when the amount of time/money/effort expended results in....well, something positive), at this point, having rebuilt these crude, proximate gizmos multiple times without any significant improvement, I'm mightily burned-out....and starting to eye my old English three-speed (bicycle) with mounting affection....:eek:
 
Something just occurred to me...

The spark plug lead insulation's worn in a coupla spots where they rub against the underside of the fuel tank. I'm wondering if one of 'em may be worn sufficiently to be causing it to short?

Early on (prior to posting here), I did do a thorough inspection of the leads and condensers, looking for shorting/burn marks, but didn't find anything. One of the leads, I think it's the left (good) side, did have a pretty deep groove rubbed into it, but not to the point of reaching the wires inside. In any case, I think I may have some new silicone spark plug leads I can swap out if anyone thinks they're likely culprits. That said, if shorts in spark plug leads are NOT likely to cause the right cylinder back-firing and rough idle, I'll probably wait 'til this issue's solved before adding them to the mix. I'd rather not add any additional variables to the mix whilst I'm still in my parts-changing neurosis.
 
Update...

5twins: No unusual sparking in or around the points. I ran a points file through a coupla times to be sure. Started her up....no change. Right cylinder's still idling rough and back-firing when RPMs're decelerating, whether just revving the throttle in neutral or driving.

So I removed the problem (right) carb and disassembled it again. The only thing I haven't changed as part of the previous rebuilds is the Z-6 needle jet, because it looked okay. But, because I'm in neurotic parts-changing mode, I ordered a new one. Unfortunately, the o-ring on the old Z-6 is a bit dry and none of the new Z-6s are displayed with (or mention the inclusion of) that o-ring. So, unless it arrives with an o-ring, I may have to reuse the old Z-6 jet.

Other than that, I blew both carb cleaner and air through ALL of the journals in the carb body and float chamber (with all jets removed). I'm 100% confident that there're no blockages within the carb. So, as was the case with the first rebuild, everything appears to be copacetic....with one possible exception: the tip of the air screw (that's how it's identified in the Yamaha parts book) is a bit mangled (see photos), so, obviously, that's not good. Is that enough to cause the rough idle and back-firing during deceleration? Beats me?

Remember, prior to the first carb rebuild, the problem was a constant flat-spot that made the bike undriveable. After the rebuild, the flat-spot was mostly gone, but I then had the rough idle and back-firing issues I'm now dealing with.

Anyroads, the air screw definitely wasn't damaged when I installed it, so either I must've closed the screw too hard or there was metal debris lodged in the screw hole that damaged it. Whatever it was, it's not there now. I lit the air port up with a pin light so I could see all the way down to the tiny hole at the bottom and it's smooth all the way. Both carb cleaner and air come out through the port near the throttle valve.

I probably won't receive the new air screw and Z-6 needle jet until the end of the week, but if anyone has any additional suggestions, please post 'em here.
Thanks again and I'll update after I reinstall the carb....again.
 

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Update...

After rebuilding the right carb again (and replacing the injured air screw), NO CHANGE. Runs great on choke, but as soon as I shut the choke off, rough idle (at ~1,200 RPM) and vague backfiring. However, today, for the first time, every minute or so idling, it would let out a single, L-O-U-D backfire BANG! (like a gunshot!). Quite unnerving and probably not too good for the engine's innards either.

But here's the weird part...and I think I mentioned this earlier: As she warmed-up, the backfiring subsided (a bit) enough for me to take the bike for a five-minute test-drive on some side streets. Other than the rough idle and backfiring (especially when decelerating), she was at least driveable. But since the idle was still rough and it was backfiring alot, I drove her back and let her idle on the center-stand whilst I consulted the service manual for some kinda clue to this nonsense. After idling for several minutes (I'm a slow reader), suddenly and instantaneously, the RPMs suddenly "clicked-up" (i.e., like someone threw a switch) to ~1,400 and all's well. She was idling perfectly smooth and completely backfire-free. Like someone swapped bikes on me. (And this same thing happened the day before I posted here.) So I revved her a bunch, expecting the rough idle and BANGS to return, but they didn't. Everything suddenly appeared to be perfect. So I took her out to enjoy a wonderful evening drive for 45 minutes without any issues. The problem is the next time I start her up, the rough idle and backfiring's back....and, sometimes, if I let her sit idling for several minutes, the RPMs'll suddenly "click-up" 200 and all's well.....until I shut her down for the day.

So I guess the question is: What might cause the engine to run rough, then, intermittently....suddenly, cause the RPMs to increase ~200 and all's well? Condenser? Ignition Coil? Global Warming? Trump?
 
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"Like a switch".
That's a clue.
Usually, electrical does stuff like that.

Long ago, I had a bad bullet connection where the coils plug into power.
Intermittent, had me chasing carb issues.

Also had a coil failure, also intermittent.
Found a crack in the coil body.
Sorry, no pic, but the crack wasn't immediately obvious...
 
"Like a switch".
That's a clue.
Usually, electrical does stuff like that.
Long ago, I had a bad bullet connection where the coils plug into power.
Intermittent, had me chasing carb issues.
Also had a coil failure, also intermittent.
Found a crack in the coil body.
Sorry, no pic, but the crack wasn't immediately obvious...

Like minds...I've been thinking the same thing and ordered a pair of coils a coupla days ago.
However, a new Update...

After the bike "switched" and, then, ran well for my Wednesday night ride, I went to start her up on Thursday at lunch, expecting the rough idle/back-firing, but, nope! She started up normally, idled for ~five minutes ('til operating temperature) and I drove her around the parking lot for a coupla minutes and she ran great.

Then, today, I tried again and all appeared to be well. So, throwing caution to the wind, I took her out for a four-hour drive into the mountains (fully expecting to be towed home) and she didn't miss a beat. However, the engine was idling at a smooth ~1,200 before I left, crept up to ~1,400 about 20 minutes later and was a blazing 1,800 by the time I got back. I'd just changed the advance springs (and checked their operation), spark plug high tension wires, NGK plugs. When I revved the engine, the idle no longer "floated", but it was definitely running too fast. Now, I don't know if this has something to do with the idle speed "switch" we've been discussing or something else, but it's definitely new and it can't possibly be the carbs.

Any idea on the increasing idle speed? Presuming nothing new pops-up, that's the only issue standing between nuisance and nirvana.
 
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Call me stupid but I'd have the idle turned down at the second stop. I normally cut off some fuel line stick it over the idle stop screw so I can finger adjust idle.
As 5twins recently mentioned; no matter how well you clean carbs you didn't get it all, crap shows up, blocks or partial blocks orifices. and sometimes goes away again. These engines will carbon up and that carbon can fall off settle on valve seats causing poor running mebbie forever of it might get hammered back off in operation. Lots of things change as an engine wakes up from a long sleep, adapt, might take a couple hundred miles for things to really settle in.
 
Call me stupid but I'd have the idle turned down at the second stop. I normally cut off some fuel line stick it over the idle stop screw so I can finger adjust idle.

I've never had an idle problem like this before and I 'spect it's related to the previous issues.

As 5twins recently mentioned; no matter how well you clean carbs you didn't get it all, crap shows up, blocks or partial blocks orifices. and sometimes goes away again. These engines will carbon up and that carbon can fall off settle on valve seats causing poor running mebbie forever of it might get hammered back off in operation.

The last TWO times I rebuilt the carb (within the past two weeks!), there was NOTHING hiding anywhere within those carbs. Not only were they soaked in carb cleaner, but they were run through an ultrasonic and, then, I blew air, carb cleaner, brake cleaner and air (again) through every single journal in the carb bodies. The carbs were absolutely hospital grade clean when they went back on the bike. And, again, this was done twice, so I can't imagine they left the factory any cleaner or more to spec. So I can't imagine how the carbs could be causing any more issues at this point??

Lots of things change as an engine wakes up from a long sleep, adapt, might take a couple hundred miles for things to really settle in.

That's about what I put on her today. But point taken..
 
After about what you did re; hours in a big heated ultrasonic, carb cleaner everything blown clear etc.
All the crap on the paper towel came out of the fuel inlet passages after all that.
1598472350017608767783-jpg.174113
 
After about what you did re; hours in a big heated ultrasonic, carb cleaner everything blown clear etc.
All the crap on the paper towel came out of the fuel inlet passages after all that.

That's some pretty nasty stuff you drilled outta there!
I removed the brass fittings as well. There was nothing like that lurking in the carbs' innards when they went back on the bike.
 
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