H4 LED drop in compatibility w PMA/Pamco/regulators etc.

[Torchard]

PMA Reg/Rectifiers have 2 types. Shunt and series.

Shunt reg/rect

The regulator part controls the amount of power going to the battery. If the PMA is a 200 watt and the bike is using 130 watts then 70 watts is being made but not going anywhere. This gets converted to heat and the cooling fins bleed this off. If the fins cant get rid of the excess heat/power fast enough the Reg/Rect unit lets any excess heat back into the line to the PMA and over heats the Stater.............. So the stater is making power to feed the reg/rect ,(but that is feeding any excess power converted to heat), it cant shunt off, back in to the stater causing it to burn out.

if you put LED lights all through the bike with a PMA then the bike will be using less Wattage. That means a bike that is usually using 130 watts could be saving 20-30 watts so now it is only using 100-110watts of the 200watts. So a 200 watt PMA Reg/rect instead of bleeding off 70 watts now has to convert 90-100 watts to heat, making it more likely to cause the reg/rect to overheat and burn out the stater


Series Reg/Rect.

The series Reg part of the Reg/rect controls the amount of power to the battery. The PMA still puts out 200 watts and if 130watt's is being used then 70 watts is the excess..........On the series Reg/Rect the regulator controls the amount of power to the battery, so it doesn't get to much, (same as the shunt Regulator).

The PMA still puts out 200 watts continuously. The difference is the series regulator shuts down one of the 3 phases (coming from the stater, white/yellow wire), for a short period of time. It then swaps over to another 2 of the 3 wires and receives power from those 2 for a short time. It keeps swapping wires so only 2 phases are being used at a time and drops the feed from one phase. This means there is less excess power the Reg has to convert to heat so the cooling fins have less to bleed off and stops any excess being feed back to the stater so the stater doesn't burn out.

If by any chance the battery is failing and the bike need more power to run the series reg will go back to using the 3 wires, (3 phases), to feed the power into battery to feed the bike.

I guess the fundamental question is at what point the regulator can’t dissipate the excess. Obviously there are variable conditions e.g. how much excess, for how long, and what is are the cooling conditions. Thanks.

 

[650Skull]

The point is get rid of the shunt reg/Rec and get a series one.........Weather it is in part to cheap Chinese made shunt Reg/rect or because the Stator's are making to much wattage for the system. This is a problem that causes the stater to burn out and this is something Hughs handbuilt learnt the hard way and MikesXS doesn't want to address.

 

[Torchard]

Well, in my case it came with the bike, I guess time will tell … that volt meter makes more sense now …

 

[650Skull]

Some of the Reg/Rect that were sold with PMA's had a habit of failing. Hugh recommends buying a Mossfit that he sells instead of the ordinary reg/Rect that comes with the kit. If the reg part of the reg/rect fails it can take out the pamco due to spikes in the charge. That was a common fault with the PMA/Pamco/cap crowd. Blowing the Pamco.

So possibly stator, battery and the pamco........Time will tell

 

[Torchard]

Fun. More to add to the list. They failed because why - faulty or due to the load? Hugh’s promote its use due to the decrease in load arising from LED usage. If we stick with big ole halogens is the risk of failure still high?

I see a series style regulator - an authentic one - on eBay for less than the mosfet option at Hugh’s. Decisions decisions ….?

 

[MacMcMacmac]

Increasing the load on a PMA is actually a good thing if you don't exceed its output. Less work for the regulator, and the power is actually doing something useful.

Shunt regulators often fail due to heat. The power they are dumping to ground is like a controlled short circuit. The regulator is controlling that circuit, hence it is generating lots of heat during it's operation. The stator is also generating lots of heat since a PMA generates maximum power at all times due to the fixed magnetic flux from the permanent magnets. You need high quality components to deal with this heat load. The race to the bottom to source the cheapest components possible is most likely why these units fail, and why OEM Honda regulators are still working 40 years on. There was a guy nicknamed Duaneage at the GS Resources website who had a decent one man operation acquiring and reselling Honda regulators to GS owners whose regulators had died. They worked the same way as the OEM Suzuki units, but were far more durable. GS Suzukis had PMA alternators and were prone to failing charging systems. My 550E had me doing a few epic pushes. There was no Internet (for me anyway) back then, so I just went to the local salvage yard and bought another Suzuki unit. There is a section on the GS Resources called The Stator Papers that is excellent reading for anyone wanting to learn about PMAs, failure modes, how to troubleshoot, even how to rewind your own stator.

Some think buying a MOSFET regulator solves all their problems. To be sure, it is a superior design, as far as protecting the regulator goes. If it is a shunt regulator, it is still just dumping power straight to ground and doing nothing to ease the heat load on the stator, which is still generating maximum power at all times.

The advent of series style regulators has been a godsend for GS owners. The most popular one is the Shindengen SH775. It is found standard on Polaris side by sides, and some Can-Am products. You used to be able to pick them up pretty cheap second hand. You can buy them new of course, but make sure you are getting the real thing, as there are counterfeits being sold claiming to be the real thing. Other options are the Cycle Electric 600 series for Harley Davidsons, and the Compu-Fire 55402. The SH847 is another good one. They came stock with the latest DL1000 V-Stroms.

You can buy this OEM Triumph set of leads to acquire the proper plugs for an SH775.

http://www.adeptpowersports.com/oem-parts/triumph-link-lead-regulator-t2500676-part.html

This 50A series regulator fur under $100 would be overkill, but do the trick easily.

http://www.adeptpowersports.com/oem-parts/polaris-regulator-3ph-50a-series-hispd-4016868-part.html

 

[Torchard]

Many thanks for all of this. I was reading through the GS stater resources page(s). I think you all have convinced me. And thanks to the link, nice price, and the adapter makes things easy. Alas they don’t ship to Canada but I’ll keep looking. (For those who don’t know, Canadian prices are often significantly higher, and so some of the no-brainer upgrades still require a bit of consideration.)

 

[Jim]

Fwiw... a lot of us here firmly believe the original alternator setup Yamaha used is the best option. It's just plain worked for the 40-50 yrs of these bikes. There's good reliable diy regulators and rectifier instructions here to upgrade the originals. I rewind the rotors that are now failing after 40+ yrs.... which is a good life in anybody's book. The stators are just plain bullet proof. Do all the upgrades and all that's required is changing the brushes every 10-15,000 miles.

I know you said your bike came with the PMA already installed, but reverting the bike back to original is easily doable. Parts are available and not that expensive. Just food for thought.

 

[bosco659]

After reading all these posts I’m going to put the H4 halogen bulb back in the bike. Over the winter I’ll source the appropriate VRR for my PMA. Is the one that Hughes sells a plug and play for the PMA?

 

[Torchard]

Thanks for this. I see that many feel original systems with proper maintenance are equal or superior to all of these so-called upgrades. I have no argument with that and might revert at some point. (On a tangential note, I’m super bummed - a long standing local MC salvage yard went out of business just a few months ago and only weeks before I picked up this project. It was packed to the rafters and would’ve been a good resource within a five minute drive.)

 

[Torchard]

Many thanks for all of this. I was reading through the GS stater resources page(s). I think you all have convinced me. And thanks to the link, nice price, and the adapter makes things easy. Alas they don’t ship to Canada but I’ll keep looking. (For those who don’t know, Canadian prices are often significantly higher, and so some of the no-brainer upgrades still require a bit of consideration.)

Go figure. I just found a used Polaris 50a series as above from a salvage outfit in Canada for a good price. Bought it. Hopefully it’s in fine functioning form. I’ll look for one of those Triumph adapters rather than my own build. T.

 

[650Skull]

I'm not going to get into a discussion about why, or the need to have a Pamco on a separate system to the PMA on first start up

The information and explanation is in here.....Post #2.....Believe it or not, do it or not........

https://www.xs650.com/threads/boyer-and-pamco-ignition.46859/

 

[Torchard]

All is well here for the moment thanks. Perhaps out of pure luck - as some parts were installed by the PO and some by me. All systems go. And now with the headlight off at start up, it fires first kick. Thing of beauty.

 

[Jim]

All is well here for the moment thanks. Perhaps out of pure luck - as some parts were installed by the PO and some by me. All systems go. And now with the headlight off at start up, it fires first kick. Thing of beauty.

Not my style... but I can appreciate it. Looks good!!

 

[Torchard]

Not my style either truth be told. But this is what came in all the boxes at a price too good to ignore. But thanks.