How-To: Permanent Magnet Alternator Swap (Also known as the Banshee Swap)

[Thraxxface]

If you look in Tech, there's articles and diagrams that offer pretty good explanations.

I’m fairly new the magnificent world of electricity but I’ve had an easier understanding of the more complicated things and lack on the basics. Reading what I’ve seen here and what you’ve said I think has put me in a much better position already. I have a bunch of diagrams already saved but i hadn’t seen anyone mention the regulator so far so that’s where I was lacking.

 

[Jim]

From page one of this thread...
3 yellows (white on some) go to the rectifier
Green is a system ground. On a PMA such as this, the ground is critical. It's a shunt type regulator. That means it dumps excess current to ground... it needs to be robust.
Red is power out (from the regulator side of the combined unit) to the bikes systems and the battery.

 

[Thraxxface]

From page one of this thread...
3 yellows (white on some) go to the rectifier
Green is a system ground. On a PMA such as this, the ground is critical. It's a shunt type regulator. That means it dumps excess current to ground... it needs to be robust.
Red is power out (from the regulator side of the combined unit) to the bikes systems and the battery.


View attachment 333886

Has anyone fused out the regulator? Or does it go straight to the battery?

 

[Jim]

Has anyone fused out the regulator? Or does it go straight to the battery?

Don't know the answer to that. I do know I certainly would add a fuse... maybe a 20A fuse.

 

[Its been a long time]

So those wires that go to the fuse box are useless?

No, I didn't say that. Generally, on a XS650 a brown wire is a switched live and black is a ground connection. How that works with a PMA I don't know. Were I interested in a PMA system (I'm not) how to hook it all up would be the first thing I would want the supplier to tell me before buying one. I like the stock alternator. I think it's a very good system and I can't help wondering if a PMA is overall no better? (For sure, it's a much more common system on bikes though. Maybe that's why it's popular).

 

[Thraxxface]

No, I didn't say that. Generally, on a XS650 a brown wire is a switched live and black is a ground connection. How that works with a PMA I don't know. Were I interested in a PMA system (I'm not) how to hook it all up would be the first thing I would want the supplier to tell me before buying one. I like the stock alternator. I think it's a very good system and I can't help wondering if a PMA is overall no better? (For sure, it's a much more common system on bikes though. Maybe that's why it's popular).

My stator is going out already anyways plus I would like for my lights to work properly at idle. Those are the main reasons I’m swapping.

 

[Jan_P]

Again no experience with PMA
This can be wrong so disregard and someone chime in

I did do the read up at some point in time
more there fex
https://www.shindengen.com/products/electro/motorcycle/reg/

Typically there is a fuse in line with the Battery in series -- and parallel with the load

I believe the PMA Systems is magnets rotating in a coil producing watts ( energy )
So this energy needs to be used up or the alternator coils able to withstand it
Not all alternator coils do that so if the regulator goes open circuit
It has happened on fex Early Suzuki's the alternator keeps on spinning with no consumption of the energy
And fries.

Again I don't know much about this .But in Circuits of this type .Be careful
Should you insert a fuse between the white ring and branch black dot

Should it go open there is no longer any consumption
And the created energy from the spinning magnets are not cooked off

So ask here first where you want to put the fuse ..

 

[Thraxxface]

Okay. Just so we’re clear. I’m running a 79’ xs650 with the OG points inside. Does this mean that I don’t have to run the PAMCOPETE mod? I found an upgrade kit on mikesxs and from what I’m reading I don’t have to do the mod. Has anyone else done this with an earlier model and not done that?

I’ve also figured out the obvious wiring from the new regulator to the rest of the bike however I still have a yellow wire that goes to the safety relay and a brown wire that goes to the fuse box that are both floating. What do I do with these? I’m pretty positive they’re needed to run the lights so I can’t just let them float. Right now I’m riding without lights.

 

[Thraxxface]

My

Okay. Just so we’re clear. I’m running a 79’ xs650 with the OG points inside. Does this mean that I don’t have to run the PAMCOPETE mod? I found an upgrade kit on mikesxs and from what I’m reading I don’t have to do the mod. Has anyone else done this with an earlier model and not done that?

I’ve also figured out the obvious wiring from the new regulator to the rest of the bike however I still have a yellow wire that goes to the safety relay and a brown wire that goes to the fuse box that are both floating. What do I do with these? I’m pretty positive they’re needed to run the lights so I can’t just let them float. Right now I’m riding without lights.

My thought for the yellow and brown wires was to tap them into the red wire immediately coming from the regulator and run them through the harness to the fuses as normal. Would that be a safe and correct call?

 

[Jan_P]

My

My thought for the yellow and brown wires was to tap them into the red wire immediately coming from the regulator and run them through the harness to the fuses as normal. Would that be a safe and correct call?

But hear of points
If there are multiple fuses there are multiple more or less
independent circuits

For the Charging it appears no fuse is used
https://xs650chopper.com/xs650-banshee-charging-system-swap/?utm_content=cmp-true

I am not exactly sure about the words --- Brown ca be at many places
But if it is to the old regulator or rectifier the Combo unit does replace it
Pulling out the old can leave a wire in the air .. Br in the middle
I would consider cap i
Dont know what yellow wire

 

[Thraxxface]

But hear of points
If there are multiple fuses there are multiple more or less
independent circuits

For the Charging it appears no fuse is used
https://xs650chopper.com/xs650-banshee-charging-system-swap/?utm_content=cmp-true

View attachment 333998


I am not exactly sure about the words --- Brown ca be at many places
But if it is to the old regulator or rectifier the Combo unit does replace it
Pulling out the old can leave a wire in the air .. Br in the middle
I would consider cap i
Dont know what yellow wire


View attachment 334001

The yellow wire comes from the original alternator and leads to the safety relay. Right now I have no headlight because I can’t get the safety relay to trip. I considered tapping into the ignition switch for the headlight but it has three light settings and I’d like to be able to use them.

As for the red wire, I’m wiring that to the red wire that already existed in the harness that leads from the 20A main fuse then to the starter then to battery as originally diagram shows. That seems logical. But the brown also leads from the regulator to the fuse box which means it powers my signals and switches. I’m running a regulator/rectifier combo for the stock alternator currently and with the brown wire connected it’s giving me power to my signals so the function is confirmed.

The only things I haven’t ruled out is faulty safety relay or dead stator. I’m working on diagnosing them both but I’m having a hard time understanding how the alternator would die after doing work elsewhere on the body without tampering with it. I did test each coil and I get resistance of .08Ohms out of all three right before they even out at .7Ohms. Specs say we should be at .5Ohms but so long as the numbers read evenly and not below .5 everything checks out. I have to test the power coming from A/C to yellow wire to see if it’s drawing power.

I’m gonna be posting about this issue more extensively in a thread that is more appropriate for that specific problem. If anyone has any bits and pieces they wanna throw my way that I can write down in my scratch pad and keep on me it would be much appreciated. As these old bikes retire we lose specific knowledge to the craft. It’s like in Zen And The Art Of Motorcycle Maintenance. We should all know the secrets of improvising maintenance on the go but we should also know the technical aspects of it as well. I’d like to keep that knowledge flowing so that newer bikers can eventually retain it for the future.

 

[Jan_P]

The yellow wire comes from the original alternator and leads to the safety relay. Right now I have no headlight because I can’t get the safety relay to trip. I considered tapping into the ignition switch for the headlight but it has three light settings and I’d like to be able to use them.

As for the red wire, I’m wiring that to the red wire that already existed in the harness that leads from the 20A main fuse then to the starter then to battery as originally diagram shows. That seems logical. But the brown also leads from the regulator to the fuse box which means it powers my signals and switches. I’m running a regulator/rectifier combo for the stock alternator currently and with the brown wire connected it’s giving me power to my signals so the function is confirmed.

The only things I haven’t ruled out is faulty safety relay or dead stator. I’m working on diagnosing them both but I’m having a hard time understanding how the alternator would die after doing work elsewhere on the body without tampering with it. I did test each coil and I get resistance of .08Ohms out of all three right before they even out at .7Ohms. Specs say we should be at .5Ohms but so long as the numbers read evenly and not below .5 everything checks out. I have to test the power coming from A/C to yellow wire to see if it’s drawing power.

I’m gonna be posting about this issue more extensively in a thread that is more appropriate for that specific problem. If anyone has any bits and pieces they wanna throw my way that I can write down in my scratch pad and keep on me it would be much appreciated. As these old bikes retire we lose specific knowledge to the craft. It’s like in Zen And The Art Of Motorcycle Maintenance. We should all know the secrets of improvising maintenance on the go but we should also know the technical aspects of it as well. I’d like to keep that knowledge flowing so that newer bikers can eventually retain it for the future.

Dont have time right now
But lets try Getting the basics right.

If You measure across battery machine running does it have ca 14 V and is charging
Then check what is coming to the fuses and check so they are OK

I don't believe I have any safety relay on my 80 here in Europe so perhaps bypass it is a solution others chime in

 

[Thraxxface]

Dont have time right now
But lets try Getting the basics right.

If You measure across battery machine running does it have ca 14 V and is charging
Then check what is coming to the fuses and check so they are OK

I don't believe I have any safety relay on my 80 here in Europe so perhaps bypass it is a solution others chime in

78’ & 79’ were the only years that got this fun combo. After doing some research I found that I can bridge the Red/White & Red/White wires together to bypass the starter safety. You also bridge the Red/Yellow & Blue/Black wire and cap off the yellow and black wires. The yellow wire from the A/C to the relay is basically useless at that point because it’s not needed to trip the relay. Basic stuff but like I’ve said before, I excel at the advanced issues and struggle with the basics.

I’m gonna run a stator test when I get home and to my multimeter. Guessing by the fact that my cluster lights has started to slowly dim while I was riding the bike earlier, it’s not charging. I’m gonna do a full walk around and check for loose or disconnected wires before I test the stator. I’ve got a sinking feeling that my new reg/rec is faulty.