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Interest in 8 plate clutch conversions?
- Thread starter gggGary
- Start date
Perhaps promote the sale of the clutch plates in the FB groups but stipulate the “deal” is only available to XS650.com members. If new members are vetted, there’s reduced likelihood of having difficulty with that sale? Since there will be a lead time on the plates, if the new members join up early enough, it will give us all time to get a feel for whether or not they’re ok folk. Just an idea.
I'll need another set soon as I'm building a 750 277 for a mate.
A new wrinkle, Alto can get me 35 sets in about 4-6 weeks
BUT they want to ship:
K2 Aramid: This grade is a premium grade that offers similar heat resistance but is more durable and recommended for more heavy duty and hi torque applications. It is a an economical alternative to OE and premium replacement material while offering significantly superior performance.
instead of the:
Red Eagle: This is our oldest and most reliable grade. It is the most popular as well. It offers the best combination of performance and price. For most applications it is ideal as it offers high heat resistance and durability at an affordable cost.
That we've been getting. Change scares me?
inquiring minds.
From an automatic transmission clutch pac thread:
Red Eagles are the same as they always been. Cellulose base saturated with a hard resin then a silicate.
My theory is.....They wanted a friction that was easier on the Nitrate Treated Steel plates while having a very short lock-up time (higher coefficient of friction) This is a very delicate balancing act but Alto did a decent job considering they were developed 30+ years ago when High Energy Carbon technology was in it's infancy & was pretty well locked down by patents.
In the case of 4L60E's.....The 3-4 clutch piston is to small to effectively use the frictional properties of the Red's (Not enough clamping force), This led to a substantial INCREASE in clutch pack temperatures. Standard Cellulose (700R4) frictions lasted longer! And of coarse High Energy was a BIG leap forward.
Another interesting theory.....Red Eagle's "hold" very little ATF in the friction matrix which I'm sure is a result of the Resin Saturation process. Standard Cellulose & High Energy frictions "hold" a lot more ATF.
I soaked all 3 types in ATF & allowed them to drip-dry, Compared before(dry) & after(wet) weight readings to come to this conclusion.
*The ATF in the friction material acts as a heat-sink to the friction surface. But this creates surface tension between the friction & steel, As a result.....The friction will skid/slip across the steel 'til the the tension is broken.
**IF Clamping Force is great enough & Actuation is quick enough for the oncoming clutch......Red Eagle's are a decent material choice. The reason they are so popular in purpose built Drag Racing transmissions.
Surface Tension with High Energy Carbon friction material can be remedied by employing Surface/Face Grooving.....Giving the ATF paths of escape. This the BEST combination of holding power & longevity when it comes to Highly Stressed Dynamic clutch packs.
Do some research......You will find that Surface Grooved High Energy Carbon frictions are being utilized more & more in high performance applications!
some more clutch thread quotes:
I'm looking at new clutches and was wondering if anyone has any experience using Alto clutch kit? I can't find any talk about it in the forums and from what I've heard, they good quality. It's between Alto Carbon Fiber with Kolene steel kit & Barnett Extra plate kit. I appreciate any input, thanks!
Some other "clutch thread" quotes not in XS650's
I've been running those Alto Carbonite kits for over a year. Works great, no complaints.
I put about 100hp through it so I use a counter weighted pressure plate.
I do police/civilian motorcycle rodeo events around the country. The group that I train with probably go through 10 clutches total per year. We all run alto and we never have trouble with the warranty, they know what we do and never hesitate to replace the clutch free of charge. Just be sure to fill out the warranty paper. We have tried several different brands and alto holds up best.
**IF Clamping Force is great enough & Actuation is quick enough for the oncoming clutch......Red Eagle's are a decent material choice. The reason they are so popular in purpose built Drag Racing transmissions.
Surface Tension with High Energy Carbon friction material can be remedied by employing Surface/Face Grooving.....Giving the ATF paths of escape. This the BEST combination of holding power & longevity when it comes to Highly Stressed Dynamic clutch packs.
Do some research......You will find that Surface Grooved High Energy Carbon frictions are being utilized more & more in high performance applications!
BUT they want to ship:
K2 Aramid: This grade is a premium grade that offers similar heat resistance but is more durable and recommended for more heavy duty and hi torque applications. It is a an economical alternative to OE and premium replacement material while offering significantly superior performance.
instead of the:
Red Eagle: This is our oldest and most reliable grade. It is the most popular as well. It offers the best combination of performance and price. For most applications it is ideal as it offers high heat resistance and durability at an affordable cost.
That we've been getting. Change scares me?
inquiring minds.
From an automatic transmission clutch pac thread:
Red Eagles are the same as they always been. Cellulose base saturated with a hard resin then a silicate.
My theory is.....They wanted a friction that was easier on the Nitrate Treated Steel plates while having a very short lock-up time (higher coefficient of friction) This is a very delicate balancing act but Alto did a decent job considering they were developed 30+ years ago when High Energy Carbon technology was in it's infancy & was pretty well locked down by patents.
In the case of 4L60E's.....The 3-4 clutch piston is to small to effectively use the frictional properties of the Red's (Not enough clamping force), This led to a substantial INCREASE in clutch pack temperatures. Standard Cellulose (700R4) frictions lasted longer! And of coarse High Energy was a BIG leap forward.
Another interesting theory.....Red Eagle's "hold" very little ATF in the friction matrix which I'm sure is a result of the Resin Saturation process. Standard Cellulose & High Energy frictions "hold" a lot more ATF.
I soaked all 3 types in ATF & allowed them to drip-dry, Compared before(dry) & after(wet) weight readings to come to this conclusion.
*The ATF in the friction material acts as a heat-sink to the friction surface. But this creates surface tension between the friction & steel, As a result.....The friction will skid/slip across the steel 'til the the tension is broken.
**IF Clamping Force is great enough & Actuation is quick enough for the oncoming clutch......Red Eagle's are a decent material choice. The reason they are so popular in purpose built Drag Racing transmissions.
Surface Tension with High Energy Carbon friction material can be remedied by employing Surface/Face Grooving.....Giving the ATF paths of escape. This the BEST combination of holding power & longevity when it comes to Highly Stressed Dynamic clutch packs.
Do some research......You will find that Surface Grooved High Energy Carbon frictions are being utilized more & more in high performance applications!
some more clutch thread quotes:
I'm looking at new clutches and was wondering if anyone has any experience using Alto clutch kit? I can't find any talk about it in the forums and from what I've heard, they good quality. It's between Alto Carbon Fiber with Kolene steel kit & Barnett Extra plate kit. I appreciate any input, thanks!
Some other "clutch thread" quotes not in XS650's
I've been running those Alto Carbonite kits for over a year. Works great, no complaints.
I put about 100hp through it so I use a counter weighted pressure plate.
I do police/civilian motorcycle rodeo events around the country. The group that I train with probably go through 10 clutches total per year. We all run alto and we never have trouble with the warranty, they know what we do and never hesitate to replace the clutch free of charge. Just be sure to fill out the warranty paper. We have tried several different brands and alto holds up best.
**IF Clamping Force is great enough & Actuation is quick enough for the oncoming clutch......Red Eagle's are a decent material choice. The reason they are so popular in purpose built Drag Racing transmissions.
Surface Tension with High Energy Carbon friction material can be remedied by employing Surface/Face Grooving.....Giving the ATF paths of escape. This the BEST combination of holding power & longevity when it comes to Highly Stressed Dynamic clutch packs.
Do some research......You will find that Surface Grooved High Energy Carbon frictions are being utilized more & more in high performance applications!
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Gary, are you asking for feedback?
Sure enough
If I were doing another, I would be happy with what was supplied before.
I am not an expert in clutch materials, but I would suggest sticking with what works, what you offered originally. Otherwise you risk not being able to move the inventory. You can see if they offer a smaller quantity of the aramid plates for you to test out with a few members here. If everything goes well, we can all transition in the future. Here, teaming up with other outlets, such as Heiden would help. Thank you for doing this for our community.
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Apparently old reliable isn't an option. Yeah getting stuck with something that might not work gives pause. But the high abuse autotranny guys give pretty positive reviews, perhaps more relevant to us the low speed mc police manuvoure folks seem to say it's ok. Thanks for input.
Well, then it is time to switch! sounds like it may be a better option anyway
From the Alto rep
"
Correct just the friction material.
Think the last one we sent you was the Red one, correct?
We have moved our low volume numbers from our Red Eagle material to our K2 material.
On low volume, we have gone to K2 as it is a superior material.
It can hold more torque, exhibits less wear, and is more durable.
Regards,"
"
Correct just the friction material.
Think the last one we sent you was the Red one, correct?
We have moved our low volume numbers from our Red Eagle material to our K2 material.
On low volume, we have gone to K2 as it is a superior material.
It can hold more torque, exhibits less wear, and is more durable.
Regards,"
I think it would be worth a try but I'm not the one spending the money to find out. How is the price compared to what you got before?
I (should be) committed, 300 plates ordered 
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Gary I haven’t installed the last set you sent me so if you want a Guinea pig I’ll swap them back for a set of the newer ones.
If you’ve got them by the rally we can do a swap in Arkansas.
The last set of red plates is on the way to Australia, thanks Dunc!
Alto cashed the check so K2 Aramid plates should be going into production soon.
Alto cashed the check so K2 Aramid plates should be going into production soon.
Thanks for organizing this Gary
Definitely thanks gx3 for getting this together. Also to the brothers on throwing ideas out to get this going again. I feel like this was asked and not an issue in another thread. I would go from 6 to 7 and keep my 1980 with little extra bits for chatter help.
Question is being a thiner friction plate does it have any more likely hood of making or cutting marks into the boss? Either way I'm at a point where just extra air coming in my clutch will slip way to easily so I want to improve that w a better metarial and extra plate.
EDIT:mostly try to run rotella 15w40 ( it does have that zdp(zink) more than average oil. It's a diesel oil allot of guys use and recommend. About 16k I'd say easy miles probably runs like new when tuned up right. I'm starting to want to keep more v for ignition and changing to led in rear brake piolet box gages and plate light. I don't want that slip anymore. Definitely taking power where it is needed for fun!
Question is being a thiner friction plate does it have any more likely hood of making or cutting marks into the boss? Either way I'm at a point where just extra air coming in my clutch will slip way to easily so I want to improve that w a better metarial and extra plate.
EDIT:mostly try to run rotella 15w40 ( it does have that zdp(zink) more than average oil. It's a diesel oil allot of guys use and recommend. About 16k I'd say easy miles probably runs like new when tuned up right. I'm starting to want to keep more v for ignition and changing to led in rear brake piolet box gages and plate light. I don't want that slip anymore. Definitely taking power where it is needed for fun!
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