If it counts... bought some more tubing for it 'bout a week ago....
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Mailmans XS2 , the rebuild.......again
- Thread starter Mailman
- Start date
I’m sure it will be amazing upon the reveal. Anticipation heightens the experience.
Now where were we?
I’ve almost forgotten myself , so I’ll give you the thumbnail recap. For those of you with long memories you might recall this thread began as an engine rebuild for reasons that I won’t go into again. I got the motor running and my bike all back together, got a new gas tank with a spiffy new paint job from Jim. All was right with the world again…….until it suddenly developed a problem that I have yet to resolve. When the engine is cold it fires right up and runs well but when it gets hot, it gets cranky and it develops all sorts of evil hard starting problems.
1. My first attempt at diagnosing this problem led me to think that the ignition coil was flaking out when it got hot.
It showed the classic symptoms of that, so I changed out my coil with a used Honda MP-08 coil that tested well.
But no joy! It didn’t change anything.
Strike One!
2. So what now? I reasoned that perhaps my battery wasn’t up to snuff. When I was cranking the motor over I was noticing a pretty significant voltage drop, so I ordered a new battery. That came in early August, I slapped that puppy in and………still the same.
Strike Two!
At this point I was feeling cranky and discouraged, the summer heat was in full swing and I didn’t feel like being in my garage. So I took a break.
Well our heat finally broke and after thinking about things for a while, I began to believe that my Pamco ignition circuit board may be the culprit. I have the newer one with the built in advance , in fact I may have the last one that Pamco Pete ever sold. It looks like this,
So after doing a little research on this, I came across a similar problem that Greg had with his new Pamco, and the testing method that he used. Here’s what I did, start the bike, get the motor hot, shut it off and try to restart it.
If it wouldn’t start, I would pull the cover off of the ignition housing , then blow compressed air over the circuit board to cool it off and try again. I was also using a high volume fan turned on just for cooling it down, not when it was running.
And now the results, drum roll please………
I attempted to start my bike ten times when it was hot, about half of the time it would crank and crank and crank and stumble and eventually start. The other half of the time it would crank and crank and fail to start.
But the big story here is, every time it failed to start, I would blow air over the circuit board for about 30 seconds and it would start right up.
I feel confident that I have repeated this pattern enough to prove that this is a failure of the Pamco circuit board.
I am leaning towards installing a Boyer ignition in it next, as I really favor electronic ignition.
I would like to thank @Jim and @GLJ for their initial work in figuring this out. And Jim for suggesting that I do this test multiple times to show that the problem can be duplicated.
I’ll be back when I have my new ignition!
-Bob
I’ve almost forgotten myself , so I’ll give you the thumbnail recap. For those of you with long memories you might recall this thread began as an engine rebuild for reasons that I won’t go into again. I got the motor running and my bike all back together, got a new gas tank with a spiffy new paint job from Jim. All was right with the world again…….until it suddenly developed a problem that I have yet to resolve. When the engine is cold it fires right up and runs well but when it gets hot, it gets cranky and it develops all sorts of evil hard starting problems.
1. My first attempt at diagnosing this problem led me to think that the ignition coil was flaking out when it got hot.
It showed the classic symptoms of that, so I changed out my coil with a used Honda MP-08 coil that tested well.
But no joy! It didn’t change anything.
Strike One!
2. So what now? I reasoned that perhaps my battery wasn’t up to snuff. When I was cranking the motor over I was noticing a pretty significant voltage drop, so I ordered a new battery. That came in early August, I slapped that puppy in and………still the same.
Strike Two!
At this point I was feeling cranky and discouraged, the summer heat was in full swing and I didn’t feel like being in my garage. So I took a break.
Well our heat finally broke and after thinking about things for a while, I began to believe that my Pamco ignition circuit board may be the culprit. I have the newer one with the built in advance , in fact I may have the last one that Pamco Pete ever sold. It looks like this,
So after doing a little research on this, I came across a similar problem that Greg had with his new Pamco, and the testing method that he used. Here’s what I did, start the bike, get the motor hot, shut it off and try to restart it.
If it wouldn’t start, I would pull the cover off of the ignition housing , then blow compressed air over the circuit board to cool it off and try again. I was also using a high volume fan turned on just for cooling it down, not when it was running.
And now the results, drum roll please………
I attempted to start my bike ten times when it was hot, about half of the time it would crank and crank and crank and stumble and eventually start. The other half of the time it would crank and crank and fail to start.
But the big story here is, every time it failed to start, I would blow air over the circuit board for about 30 seconds and it would start right up.
I feel confident that I have repeated this pattern enough to prove that this is a failure of the Pamco circuit board.
I am leaning towards installing a Boyer ignition in it next, as I really favor electronic ignition.
I would like to thank @Jim and @GLJ for their initial work in figuring this out. And Jim for suggesting that I do this test multiple times to show that the problem can be duplicated.
I’ll be back when I have my new ignition!
-Bob
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Glad that's sorted. But yer scaring me, 
madness has been running flawlessly for about 5 years, 10K miles, on a pamco with separate e-advance. We don't get Arizona class heat. and the bike sees little "stop n go" city riding. 
madness has been running flawlessly for about 5 years, 10K miles, on a pamco with separate e-advance. We don't get Arizona class heat. and the bike sees little "stop n go" city riding. 
Happy to hear you got it nailed down.
No I think I do as I bought mine less than a week before he stopped selling them. And it was bad.
Get a Boyer. 11,000 smiles and no problems with it.
As the old saying goes "once you you go Boyer you never go back".
Make sure you get the blue box Boyer.
Thinking out loud as food for thought
I have had problems many years ago starting with stock coils and points when warm .
Coils sitting above the engine
So perhaps another position of the coils can be tested or compare with mr 3 g G
where his coils are positioned
Also the Boyer has cooling parts for the coil
I have had problems many years ago starting with stock coils and points when warm .
Coils sitting above the engine
So perhaps another position of the coils can be tested or compare with mr 3 g G
where his coils are positioned
Also the Boyer has cooling parts for the coil
As I was explaining to Bob, that's a trick I learned in the Air Force. Sometimes I'd have to work backshop at a test bench. I hated it... but I learned stuff. Sometimes a flight control computer or such would only act up after an hour or two. Shut it off to replace a board and it'd work fine... 'till it got hot again. We had aerosol cans of air and nitrogen with a straw. You'd spray air on just the right chip or whatever and it'd start working normally... 'till it got hot again. Rinse and repeat 'till you knew exactly what component was overheating and Bobs your uncle... easy fix.
He tried a different coil Jan... no joy.
Yes Sir I believe I got that .But I was thinking right or wrong that the same placement above the cylinders and
Arizona heat could give both sets of Coils problems.
It is a long shot when two has been tested . and the cooling of the Pamco made a difference
But I threw it out anyway.
If fex gggG has another installation.
Glad that's sorted. But yer scaring me,
I am running that same set up in my ‘77 and it works perfectly……so far.
Yeah buddy! Where did you get yours from?
I know what you’re saying, right above the head is a very hot location, but that placement is all that’s available that wouldn’t show, and I really want to keep the appearance of the stock bike.
I have an Accel coil, pretty much where the coils are always mounted.
Now where were we?
View attachment 198749
I’ve almost forgotten myself , so I’ll give you the thumbnail recap. For those of you with long memories you might recall this thread began as an engine rebuild for reasons that I won’t go into again. I got the motor running and my bike all back together, got a new gas tank with a spiffy new paint job from Jim. All was right with the world again…….until it suddenly developed a problem that I have yet to resolve. When the engine is cold it fires right up and runs well but when it gets hot, it gets cranky and it develops all sorts of evil hard starting problems.
1. My first attempt at diagnosing this problem led me to think that the ignition coil was flaking out when it got hot.
It showed the classic symptoms of that, so I changed out my coil with a used Honda MP-08 coil that tested well.
But no joy! It didn’t change anything.
Strike One!
View attachment 198751
2. So what now? I reasoned that perhaps my battery wasn’t up to snuff. When I was cranking the motor over I was
noticing a pretty significant voltage drop, so I ordered a new battery. That came in early August, I slapped that
puppy in and………still the same.
Strike Two!
View attachment 198753
At this point I was feeling cranky and discouraged, the summer heat was in full swing and I didn’t feel like being in my garage. So I took a break.
Well our heat finally broke and after thinking about things for a while, I began to believe that my Pamco ignition circuit board may be the culprit. I have the newer one with the built in advance , in fact I may have the last one that Pamco Pete ever sold. It looks like this,
View attachment 198755
So after doing a little research on this, I came across a similar problem that Greg had with his new Pamco, and the testing method that he used. Here’s what I did, start the bike, get the motor hot, shut it off and try to restart it.
If it wouldn’t start, I would pull the cover off of the ignition housing , then blow compressed air over the circuit board to cool it off and try again. I was also using a high volume fan turned on just for cooling it down, not when it was running.
And now the results, drum roll please………
I attempted to start my bike ten times when it was hot, about half of the time it would crank and crank and crank and stumble and eventually start. The other half of the time it would crank and crank and fail to start.
But the big story here is, every time it failed to start, I would blow air over the circuit board for about 30 seconds and it would start right up.
I feel confident that I have repeated this pattern enough to prove that this is a failure of the Pamco circuit board.
I am leaning towards installing a Boyer ignition in it next, as I really favor electronic ignition.
I would like to thank @Jim and @GLJ for their initial work in figuring this out. And Jim for suggesting that I do this test multiple times to show that the problem can be duplicated.
I’ll be back when I have my new ignition!
-Bob
The scientific method is really great isn't it?
I just completed a 4 week experiment in collaboration with my sleep doctor testing an inline filter on my CPAP machine, with encouraging results.
Yours are similarly encouraging, Bob.
I really hope that the Boyer works for you.
As you know, this is all Food For Thought for me relative to my similar (but more minor) issues with my '75 in which I installed a PAMCO (w/out the e-advance) 4 years ago. Your travails have helped drive some of my own experiments.
.
.
E-Bay They are a little more expensive now.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/234134828121?hash=item368385f459:g:LGUAAOSwnQFeb43k
https://www.ebay.com/itm/255142389838?hash=item3b67abe84e:g:EhYAAOSwR7JfMfjK
LTGTR
XS650 Addict
Mailman - had a similar (but different) experience about 15 years ago with a Subaru Liberty.
One in approx 20 starts (only when the motor was already hot) it would fail to start. I rang the service manager and we agreed it was no good bringing it in to him if it wasnt playing up. So he suggested I have a coke bottle of water in the car at all times and the next time it failed to start I had to pour the cold water over either one of the 2 sensors in the motor that he suspected was faulty (camshaft sensor or the crankshaft sensor ??). Sure enough it worked and I was able to pinpoint which sensor it was and had it replaced.
I hope you have found your culprit - I have a boyer and no complaints.
Regards Ray.
One in approx 20 starts (only when the motor was already hot) it would fail to start. I rang the service manager and we agreed it was no good bringing it in to him if it wasnt playing up. So he suggested I have a coke bottle of water in the car at all times and the next time it failed to start I had to pour the cold water over either one of the 2 sensors in the motor that he suspected was faulty (camshaft sensor or the crankshaft sensor ??). Sure enough it worked and I was able to pinpoint which sensor it was and had it replaced.
I hope you have found your culprit - I have a boyer and no complaints.
Regards Ray.
Wonder if it's a cracked trace on the board? He basically used off the shelf electronics?
Full disclosure I have a dead separate e advance. It died while sitting in the shed, about zero miles on it at the time. I ordered a a replacement and a few more at the time and got a bit of a break though not a full warrantee.
Full disclosure I have a dead separate e advance. It died while sitting in the shed, about zero miles on it at the time.
I ordered a a replacement and a few more at the time and got a bit of a break though not a full warrantee.
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Wonder if it's a cracked trace on the board? He basically used off the shelf electronics?
Full disclosure I have a dead separate e advance. It died while sitting in the shed, about zero miles on it at the time.
I didn’t mention this in my write up, but about halfway through the testing yesterday, during one of the cool downs, I had opened up the Pamco so that the circuit board was exposed. I sprayed it with contact cleaner and looked at it very closely with a flashlight. Trying to see something obvious, burned, rubbed on, or broken solder. But nothing jumped out at me. I suppose it could be a flaw in the circuit board itself or just one of the electronic components that is heat adverse.
When cooling air makes it work, it's invariably a solid state component in my experience.
Interesting read, good job
Bob, I am really looking forward to your installation documentation and road testing!Thanks! I just ordered my new Boyer ignition, I should have it in about a week.
It is always top-notch.
I predict that the vintage Dyna II ignition on my '76 will not last forever, and the Boyer will likely be my go-to replacement.
.
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