More BS38 hassles with my 73 TX.

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Ok guys, I really need some guidance from those who know the BS38 carbs inside out.
I've read the Grizld & 5Twins epic carb guide booklet till I'm blue in the face and I think I've done all the cleaning and checks in accordance with the guide, but I've still got a burp, burp, burping stuttering pilot circuit (at least I assume can only be the pilot circuit at 1/8 - 1/4 throttle and below 3000rpm). Above 3000rpm all seems to work spot on, with plenty of pull right through to full throttle with no issues, hence why I assume its pilots.
The issues I have on the road is the bike stutters and burps annoyingly, while holding 1/8 - 1/4 throttle in say 2nd or 3rd gear, at constant speed. When I try to pull away from standstill the engine splutters and stalls, unless I give it some revs to overcome the loss of power. Its a real pain in the arse.

I was on 42.5 pj's, 130 mains, and the mixture screws were 3/4 turns out. Adjusting the screws made no discernable difference to rpm. Anyway, maybe mistakenly I thought the mixture screws were too closed at only 3/4 turns out, so swapped out the pj's for #40s. I set the mixture screws at 1 turn out, took it up the road to warm it up. While cold the low rev range seems to work fine (did with 45.5 pj's too), pulling smoothly from tickover, but as soon a there's a few miles of warm up the stuttering and burping come back strong.

Once warmed up I tried to adjust the LH mixture screw from 1 turn out, tickover at 1000-1200. Opening it up made little difference till I got to around 1.5 - 1.75 turns out when it began slowing. Closing it down 1/4 - 1/2 turn slowed revs ever so slightly until at closed the engine stops.
Now the RH side is more weird. From one turn out, opening the screw 1/4 turn slows revs but closing the screw, from one turn out all the way through to fully closed continually increases the revs significantly, to around 2000rpm! And then after resettling throttle stop screw and blipping throttle it always keeps hanging, before settling down to 1200rpm.
Frankly, I'm totally lost. There's no-one where I live who will touch carbs. I've cleaned out the carbs (which look very clean anyways) several times now, and carb cleaner seems to be spraying out of all orifices correctly. Float heights are both at 25mm and new float valves fitted. New intake boots and gaskets and blue hylomar used to make sure of no air leaks. So, do I finally have to ditch the BS38's for VM's, which I don't want to do because the bike is totally stock or go back to the 42.5 pj's which were no better? I can't glean anything more from reading, I'm simply not carb-wise, so any help would be appreciated. Please don't reply with clean the carbs again, as I'm absolutely certain they're clean.
 
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This bit in bold caught my attention -

"130 mains, and the mixture screws were 3/4 turns out. Adjusting the screws made no discernable difference to rpm. Anyway, maybe mistakenly I thought the mixture screws were too closed at only 3/4 turns out, so swapped out the pj's for #40s."

Amongst the many things I found wrong with the BS38 carbs on my back from the dead project. I noticed that previous owner had screwed the mixture screws into the carb body too firmly. The small pilot mixture hole that is supposed to be metered by the pointed end of the mixture screw couldn't work because the hole was plugged with the snapped off end of a mixture screw. Hence it didn't matter where you set the mixture screw, the port was plugged and not effective.

Secondly, I also found on the other carb, the previous owner had drilled a snapped off end out of the pilot mixture screw port, presumably to remove a snapped off screw tip. The port was maybe 3mm diameter where it should be maybe 1mm diameter.

In both scenarios the mixture screw was completely ineffective.

Worth checking.
 
Good detailed description Manny. Didn't see throttle shaft seals mentioned ...
That would be my suspicion from your description I'd bet there's an air leak SOMEWHERE in that rh carb. Air leak, mixture very lean, adding idle mix fuel balances the air leak but now you have enough mix that the cylinder can rev. Quick test: idling, spray some carb cleaner around the front of the carb if it revs, there's your proof.
Throttle shaft seals aren't horrible but a full afternoon's fussy work. The Suzuki part # seems to be the lowest cost for the correct part.
 
Cheers gggGary and Its been a long time for your comments will check both. I have some doubts about a snapped off mixture screw blocking the metering hole though, because if that we the case I would expect the debris to damage the current screws, but they are good and sharp pointed.
Have been a little uneasy about replacing the throttle shaft seals, as comments on the forum, by 5 Twins I think, suggest removing the screws from the shafts can be fraught with risk, and I don't want anything messing up another biking season. I get sick of waiting for parts day after day while the sun's shining. Already missed great weather waiting for carb bits. But will see how easy/hard it is to remove the plate screws. Fingers crossed.
 
On the older carbs it is a bit of a pain, the screws are staked big time and you need to grind off the end that protrudes. I've found a small egg or round bit in a dremel is the hot tip to flush down the threads.
Do you mean the screw threads protrude out beyond the shaft, on the opposite side to the screw head, and that additional threaded bit is best ground off?
 
My 10cents go with the shaft seal too, if you haven’t replaced it while cleaning the carp it’s a very likely culprit. I’ve made the mistake overhauling the carb to the fullest and not replacing the seal, needless to say I had to take them back off and dismantle the carb to
Replace seals - pain in the neck.
Anyhow I also made a little tool I could enter the carp to hold against the shaft when removing and install screws for the butterfly valve - this way you can add pressure to the screw when loosening it without potentially bend the shaft. The screws are the hardest to get out - make sure your screwdriver or bit is a good fit so you don’t strip them. I’ve had a few that got stripped so I had to drill them out. Buy a handful to have in your stash :).
I’m out of town but I’ll try to remember to send a pic of the tool I made. It’s very simple
 
Do you mean the screw threads protrude out beyond the shaft, on the opposite side to the screw head, and that additional threaded bit is best ground off?
butterfly screw grind.jpg diamond egg shape grinding bit.png
 
Buy a handful to have in your stash :).
I’m out of town but I’ll try to remember to send a pic of the tool I made. It’s very simple

A pic would be good. And if you've previously bought the screws, where did you get them from?
I’ll have to check on where I got the screws from - I don’t recall - shop around depending on what I’m in the need off :)
 
GggGary made this one post my tool is a copy :)
While snagging parts for a member with a bent throttle shaft I came up with this simple tool/fixture, it really helped remove the screws with no drama even with "pre fuggled" phillips slots. Sorry grabbed the wrong camera got blurry pics, stick is about 3/4 x 1". Clamp it in a vice, butt resting on the vice screw for support. Just shaped a stick with hand tools, 15 20 minutes total, this will aid in assembly as well as removal. Note the groove to capture the shaft, slotted to clear the brass tube, and bit of a bevel on one side to clear the butterfly. This lets you really bear down on the screwdriver to save the slot without the need for three hands to hang on to everything or the pressure bending the shaft.
DSCN0441.JPG DSCN0437.JPG

Use some lube on the back of the screws before removal. They are staked, the lube helps keep from tearing up threads on the soft brass throttle shafts. Even better is to file away the staked part of the screws BUT this is fussy fine work, very easy to nick up the carb bore butterfly shaft etc. Don't attempt filing if you are not a bit OCD and willing to TAKE PLENTY OF TIME and care.

When the screws and butterfly are out you need to carefully deburr the throttle shaft front and back, at the screw holes, there will be a bit of swarf sticking up that will scratch up the throttle body bushings on the way out of the carb.
The throttle shaft is chrome plated brass, IE it's soft and easily damaged. Don't aggressively polish the butterfly, being brass it can quickly wear away, corners can round destroying the critical sharp edge needed to get the idle right.
search terms
BS34 BS38 bs34s bs38s butterfly throttle shaft tool oak wood vice clamp impact hand JIS phillips butterflies seal seals guide removal remove burr strip stripped drill stake staked gggGary OCD nuts LOL bit allen hex replace replaced pine flooring stick rod dowel. leak air idle vary runon hang plate bear leverage crack clink
 

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Wish I had an idea of what metric size they are. Will get the original ones out and try an M3, M4.
Never heard the term 'staked' before. Not sure what you mean, will google it.
Staking, in this context means buggering up the threads of the screw after it's installed.
Think of it as a poor man's threadlocker.
 
Staking, in this context means buggering up the threads of the screw after it's installed.
Think of it as a poor man's threadlocker.
He’s it’s like flattening or spreading the end of the screw to prevent it from backing out due to vibration. Nowadays a good lock tire will prevent that
 
A couple of handy posts from me in this thread. I recommend not using the die grinder at high speed, just moderate speed. A conical stone at moderate speed recommended, carbide or diamond bits I think are too aggressive. I have used the Suzuki (same as Yamaha) seals from Fowlers. I have also successfully used generic quad ring seals. I have done my own and a few sets off other people's bikes in the last couple of years.

Post in thread 'Carbs are off again. What now?' https://www.xs650.com/threads/carbs-are-off-again-what-now.66888/post-851156
 
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Thanks for the link. Read through the post. Very useful. AND you mention the screws need to be M3x6 (or 8mm if no 6mm available). And the new seal Suzi part no. is in the thread too! What more could I ask for, thanks 😄
Will get the seals and screws ordered up and give it a go, and post updates.

Haha, thought my carb issues were the only issues with this bloody TX. Went for a short ride last night, parked up at a mates for a couple of hours and, given the run of bad luck I've been having with my bikes recently, he joked as I was leaving: "be your luck for the bike not to start, haha". And guess what? It wouldn't. No power WHATSOEVER. Not even enough to illuminate the neutral lamp. Stuck his Noco boost charger on the new Shido lithium battery and it made not one scrap of difference. No power. So had to get the boss to come out with my bike trailer and trailer it home. Stuck it on charge and hey presto its charging up!! Checked the charging system a couple of weeks back and it was giving out 13.9 - 14v at 3000rpm, so seems ok. And stuck my ameter between batt pos terminal and batt pos lead and there was no drawdown at all with ign switch off. So not sure what's going on. Might just stick a PMA on it. Anyway, enough about that, this thread is for the carb issue.
 
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