ThomasADixon
XS650 Enthusiast
As shown the motorcycle shop suggests electronic ignition on points bike. Is that maybe the consensus?
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Motorcycle shop suggests electronic ignition for 71XS1-b
- Thread starter ThomasADixon
- Start date
It's a personal choice but make SURE you get ALL the points related parts they remove and KEEP them. Someday someone will be putting it back to points.
If setting points is a bit of a hassle then it would be a go. Have a look around for different makes. There are a few around.
Points work just fine if properly cared for. Thing is, you're always caring for them, lol, setting them and the timing, replacing them periodically, etc. Once you get the hang of it and get the proper tools (timing light, dwell meter), it's not a bad job. There's just no way around the fact that you'll always be doing it, lol. So, an electronic ignition is a very nice upgrade. A big selling point is the "set and forget" aspect, but it's not exactly true. You will most likely have to re-set and tweak it several times to get it exactly where you want it, where the bike runs best and doesn't ping. Then you should be good for a long time. Eventually, if it's a cam based unit, the timing may change a bit as the cam chain stretches, so you will want to check the timing occasionally just in case.
ThomasADixon
XS650 Enthusiast
Thanks gents. I have some time to think about it as bike shops are busy. So…I bought a 75 Honda cb200t w electric start!
If your points and mechanical advance system are working well you can always buy an electronic ignition module to fit between the points and coil. These modules are quite cheap. They only draw about 20mA through the points so the points last a long time and do not require regular adjustment.
In the UK Yambits sells a replacement advance unit for about £80 and MikesXS offers a similar or same product. So it is easy enough to retain the points and have the advantage of electronic ignition.
In the UK Yambits sells a replacement advance unit for about £80 and MikesXS offers a similar or same product. So it is easy enough to retain the points and have the advantage of electronic ignition.
If I had a XS1B which had survived for 51 years unmolested, I wouldn't be altering anything.
I'd stock up on the best quality points that I could buy, and invest in a good quality strobe lamp.
Having said that it will probably run cleaner and start better on a breakerless system, and if you pay someone else to service the bike, they won't be charging you to set the points any longer.
If the bike is 100% standard, I'd keep it that way, despite what people might claim, performance mods will actually detract from it's value.
If however, it's been chopped about and customized, you have nothing to loose.
I'd stock up on the best quality points that I could buy, and invest in a good quality strobe lamp.
Having said that it will probably run cleaner and start better on a breakerless system, and if you pay someone else to service the bike, they won't be charging you to set the points any longer.
If the bike is 100% standard, I'd keep it that way, despite what people might claim, performance mods will actually detract from it's value.
If however, it's been chopped about and customized, you have nothing to loose.
ThomasADixon
XS650 Enthusiast
The CB200 has points of course. And I like having two bikes (actually I have three - a little 80' CT110 which I kick-start), the thing is I can start the CB200 with its starter (and probably kick it over too). The XS1 has got to be made easy enough for me to kick-over. Such a monster. I can see Mr Miagi kick his over in those videos - I should be able to also.
So here is my plan and thanks for all the input;
I do like keeping the XS 100% original and will first try and keep it as such. I will replace the points with a high quality product and give that a try first. I am going to let the shop do it. I am going to have them retard the timing a few degrees to make it as easy as possible to start. Compression is compression - there is no relief from that part of the kick cycle - I can kick thru that. Its just that if it kicks back, or I have to straighten my leg, I over-extend. The guy at the shop was understanding and can show me how to set up the kick cycle to get it the first time. I intend to be able to set them myself. I just don't know what I effed up.
If not I'll try the breaker-less system keeping on hand all parts to convert back to points if I ever go to sell it.
Failing that; I'll throw a big rug over it and let it sit in my garage for another fifty years - imagine that.
Thanks all.
So here is my plan and thanks for all the input;
I do like keeping the XS 100% original and will first try and keep it as such. I will replace the points with a high quality product and give that a try first. I am going to let the shop do it. I am going to have them retard the timing a few degrees to make it as easy as possible to start. Compression is compression - there is no relief from that part of the kick cycle - I can kick thru that. Its just that if it kicks back, or I have to straighten my leg, I over-extend. The guy at the shop was understanding and can show me how to set up the kick cycle to get it the first time. I intend to be able to set them myself. I just don't know what I effed up.
If not I'll try the breaker-less system keeping on hand all parts to convert back to points if I ever go to sell it.
Failing that; I'll throw a big rug over it and let it sit in my garage for another fifty years - imagine that.
Thanks all.
When you get the problem sorted try less choke as this can be a major source of kickback when the engine is cold. On YouTube there are videos of people getting bad kickback. If you look carefully this happens when they are too delicate with the kick, or are off balance so not getting all their weight behind the kick. The kick needs to be firm from top to the bottom. Do not start bringing you leg back up until the motor stops rotating.
XT500: Off balance, too delicate and not kicking right through.
XR500: Off balance and kicker to far forward. I suspect this rider is more used to the low compression of 2-strokes.
When sitting on the seat and leaning to the left you are off balance and the kick is not usually firm enough. Ok on 2-strokes tho.
XT500: Good firm kick while in vertical upright position. It is a bit hard to see his foot position but looking through the gap at rear of the engine you will see the kicker is back against his heel and he kicks right through from top to bottom.
Note: The XT/ has more compression issues than the XS, but the XS is not a difficult bike to kick over by any means. It's all about getting the technique right as seen in the last XT video.
XS650: Note the kickback occurs when the kicker is not driven all the way through from top to bottom and also when he starts bring the kicker back up while the motor is still rotating.
When cold I find it easiest to kick start the XS with the bike on centerstand and me standing on the rightside of the bike with the other foot on the ground. Position the kicker firmly where your instep meets the heel. If positioned too far forward any shock from a kickback is taken by the ankle instead of the whole leg.
Have fun and you will get it all sorted with practice.
XT500: Off balance, too delicate and not kicking right through.
XR500: Off balance and kicker to far forward. I suspect this rider is more used to the low compression of 2-strokes.
When sitting on the seat and leaning to the left you are off balance and the kick is not usually firm enough. Ok on 2-strokes tho.
XT500: Good firm kick while in vertical upright position. It is a bit hard to see his foot position but looking through the gap at rear of the engine you will see the kicker is back against his heel and he kicks right through from top to bottom.
Note: The XT/ has more compression issues than the XS, but the XS is not a difficult bike to kick over by any means. It's all about getting the technique right as seen in the last XT video.
XS650: Note the kickback occurs when the kicker is not driven all the way through from top to bottom and also when he starts bring the kicker back up while the motor is still rotating.
When cold I find it easiest to kick start the XS with the bike on centerstand and me standing on the rightside of the bike with the other foot on the ground. Position the kicker firmly where your instep meets the heel. If positioned too far forward any shock from a kickback is taken by the ankle instead of the whole leg.
Have fun and you will get it all sorted with practice.
Well, it may have been as simple as you contaminating the faces of the points with an oily feeler gauge. If the blade had any oil what so ever on it, that could happen. Then the points won't fire. You want the blade totally clean and dry when using it on points so clean it first with electrical contact cleaner. That being said, if you really are serious about keeping the points and want to be able to set their gaps exactly, get yourself a dwell meter. This measures the points gap electronically so there's no need to get a feeler gauge anywhere near them. This is the most accurate way to set the points gap and the only accurate way to set used points. Used points develop pits on the faces and the spark jumps between those pits. You can't measure between the pits with a feeler gauge. The gap you're measuring and setting with the feeler gauge is smaller than the actual gap between the pits that the spark is jumping between. Keeping that in mind, if you must gap used points with a feeler gauge, it's best you set them to the lower end of their spec.
For points, try to find the Daiichi brand. This is what Yamaha originally used. There are lots of cheapo Chinese points sets out there now .....
For points, try to find the Daiichi brand. This is what Yamaha originally used. There are lots of cheapo Chinese points sets out there now .....
Also points and timing related, I'll mention that you must service (clean and lube) the advance unit and particularly, the advance rod occasionally. Many of these haven't been touched since they left the factory, lol.
The advance rod runs through the cam. There is a little points cam attached to the points end that operates the points and the other end is tied into the advance unit with a little disc .....
The little tabs on the advance weights hook into the little disc and when centrifugal force flings the weights out, the advance rod is turned a little bit, maybe 1/8 of a turn. This all needs to happen easily and smoothly, hence the need to keep the parts lubed. There are bushings pressed into each end of the cam. The outer one has grooves cut in it's I.D. to hold grease. This provides a supply of lube for quite some time .....
So, you only need to service the rod like every 5 years or so, but it does need to be done. Clean out any remnants of old grease and pack the bushing grooves full of fresh stuff. The factory recommends a grease with moly in it. I use VW CV joint grease because it has a very high moly content .....
For the advance unit, I'll initially take it all apart (remove the weights and springs) and clean it up real good. Then, being that the backing plate is just raw steel, I wipe that down with motor oil. Not a lot, I just make it shine with oil. Too much will just get flung off during operation anyway, making a mess inside the housing. The weight pivot posts get lightly greased. In the future, to keep it lubed, I dribble a few drops of foaming chain lube on the posts and springs. I do this after returning from a ride, when it's hot, because the lube penetrates better then.
The advance rod runs through the cam. There is a little points cam attached to the points end that operates the points and the other end is tied into the advance unit with a little disc .....
The little tabs on the advance weights hook into the little disc and when centrifugal force flings the weights out, the advance rod is turned a little bit, maybe 1/8 of a turn. This all needs to happen easily and smoothly, hence the need to keep the parts lubed. There are bushings pressed into each end of the cam. The outer one has grooves cut in it's I.D. to hold grease. This provides a supply of lube for quite some time .....
So, you only need to service the rod like every 5 years or so, but it does need to be done. Clean out any remnants of old grease and pack the bushing grooves full of fresh stuff. The factory recommends a grease with moly in it. I use VW CV joint grease because it has a very high moly content .....
For the advance unit, I'll initially take it all apart (remove the weights and springs) and clean it up real good. Then, being that the backing plate is just raw steel, I wipe that down with motor oil. Not a lot, I just make it shine with oil. Too much will just get flung off during operation anyway, making a mess inside the housing. The weight pivot posts get lightly greased. In the future, to keep it lubed, I dribble a few drops of foaming chain lube on the posts and springs. I do this after returning from a ride, when it's hot, because the lube penetrates better then.
ThomasADixon
XS650 Enthusiast
This is invaluable information. I am looking forward to getting it back. It could be a number of weeks.
Thanks men
Thanks men
ThomasADixon
XS650 Enthusiast
You guys blow me away with your knowledge - i wish we lived in the same neighborhood
ThomasADixon
XS650 Enthusiast
I am embarrassed to say that I cannot get (with the way I am going it) this bike up on the center stand.
easy trick is to back the rear wheel up on a piece of 2x4 then try the stand.
Probably needed; Take the centerstand bolts out (only one at a time) and grease them, it'll be a lot easier.
Probably needed; Take the centerstand bolts out (only one at a time) and grease them, it'll be a lot easier.
Yes, unlike many other bikes that simply pinch the tops of the centerstand leg tubes flat and drill a hole through them for the pivot, the 650 has short tubes on top of the legs that pivot on shouldered bolts. This works very well if you keep it greased but binds up big time if dry and rusty, making it much more difficult to deploy the stand. I add grease fittings and the difference it makes is really amazing .....
ThomasADixon
XS650 Enthusiast
youse guys are amazing.
