Absolutely LOVE these threads about the exploits of your outfit's trials and tribulations!
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New 700cc Outfit
- Thread starter Signal
- Start date
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- Tags
- customizing sidecar two stroke
Some more progress:
The rear and lower engine mounts are largely finished just need to make some aluminium spacers, welding and tidy up.
Left to right Frame lower mounts, engine Right lower , engine left lower ,top rear mount.
The pipe sticking out of the frame is an old exhaust mount still not sure if it will be needed or can be cut off.
The front engine mount is mostly made but will have to wait until the frame is further finished before it can be drilled to suit the frame bushes that are yet to be installed. Then it can be bolted up and welded together.
I will post photos of the assembled mounts it is a bit hard to see how it all works without an overview.
A new steering head has been made and the old front of the frame has been cut off.
The new front section has been mostly assembled. It needs gusseting and welding.
The exhaust spigots are made just need spring holes in the flanges. The exhaust after the spigots will be spring mounted it makes the pipes much quicker to remove.
Also need to finish the hubs with bearing spacers and bolt bushes.
Rethinking the side wheel the axel mount it will now be cut off and lowered in preference to using a 13-inch wheel. The mount needs repairing anyway after the crash.
Thinking about the gearing we checked the difference in circumference of the 10inch wheel next to the 13-inch wheel and it is about 9% different. Knowing what gearing a 10-inch wheeled XS outfit runs we can work out what we need for the 13-inch wheel.
We found with the old XS outfit that once we got the rear sprocket kind of sorted, we could alter the gearing to suit most tracks just by changing the front either 16,17 or 18.
The next item on the list is a good tidy up of the build table!
The rear and lower engine mounts are largely finished just need to make some aluminium spacers, welding and tidy up.
Left to right Frame lower mounts, engine Right lower , engine left lower ,top rear mount.
The pipe sticking out of the frame is an old exhaust mount still not sure if it will be needed or can be cut off.
The front engine mount is mostly made but will have to wait until the frame is further finished before it can be drilled to suit the frame bushes that are yet to be installed. Then it can be bolted up and welded together.
I will post photos of the assembled mounts it is a bit hard to see how it all works without an overview.
A new steering head has been made and the old front of the frame has been cut off.
The new front section has been mostly assembled. It needs gusseting and welding.
The exhaust spigots are made just need spring holes in the flanges. The exhaust after the spigots will be spring mounted it makes the pipes much quicker to remove.
Also need to finish the hubs with bearing spacers and bolt bushes.
Rethinking the side wheel the axel mount it will now be cut off and lowered in preference to using a 13-inch wheel. The mount needs repairing anyway after the crash.
Thinking about the gearing we checked the difference in circumference of the 10inch wheel next to the 13-inch wheel and it is about 9% different. Knowing what gearing a 10-inch wheeled XS outfit runs we can work out what we need for the 13-inch wheel.
We found with the old XS outfit that once we got the rear sprocket kind of sorted, we could alter the gearing to suit most tracks just by changing the front either 16,17 or 18.
The next item on the list is a good tidy up of the build table!
The frame has been altered welded and painted. The race motor has been installed.
Been quite busy doing little jobs finishing off the wheels making bearing spacers, hub bushes etc. the 13 inch diameter rims are within the rules for our class but allow for a wider tyre which is a bonus.
The rear sprocket has been sorted just need to drill the bolts for lockwire and mount it. The rear tyre has been reversed and is now in the correct direction.
The motor is in the frame and work has began on building the pipes, using a 2 into 1 to see how it goes at this stage. No real design just making something that fits.
I have made a rotor and pick ups for the ignition, going to use an Ignitech it will allow for easy adjustments when we start to run methanol. I used my rephased road bike with a cam driven ignition to bench test the initial programming. I slowly realised that the Scitsu tach for the old rephased motor would read 2x now that we have gone from a cam fired ignition to a crank fired unit.
However the tacho of the 700 being for a two stroke would now work fine.
Been through the carbs checked float heights and upped the main jet to a 200 as a starting point. Replaced the broken front brake lever and serviced the calipers. Surprisingly most of the callipers were semi seized so cleaned and serviced them so they move freely now. While I had the discs off I took the opportunity to bead blast them.
Some time later,
the pipes are finished just need painting, the oil containment tray is almost done. Now trying to work out a mount for the fuel pump, its an electric on a carb model Honda CBR600. These are the go to pump for the classic sidecars in Europe no need for a regulator. A couple of the outfits here run them without issues so have gone away from the pulse pump. I spent an age today making a fuel T for the carbs.
Mounted a LED for the neutral light and fitted the decompressor lever (the lever is for a small childs push bike), rechecked that there are no collisions with the lever pulled by turning the motor over by hand.
Earlier I rechecked the cam timing because I had convinced myself it was 1 tooth off. Rechecked the timing and the cam had been installed correctly.
A mate is repairing and repainting the body work as we are running out of time the next meeting is at the end of the month and both of us are busy with work.
There is still a lot to do and we need to get the Technical Steward round to sign the bike off.
Been quite busy doing little jobs finishing off the wheels making bearing spacers, hub bushes etc. the 13 inch diameter rims are within the rules for our class but allow for a wider tyre which is a bonus.
The rear sprocket has been sorted just need to drill the bolts for lockwire and mount it. The rear tyre has been reversed and is now in the correct direction.
The motor is in the frame and work has began on building the pipes, using a 2 into 1 to see how it goes at this stage. No real design just making something that fits.
I have made a rotor and pick ups for the ignition, going to use an Ignitech it will allow for easy adjustments when we start to run methanol. I used my rephased road bike with a cam driven ignition to bench test the initial programming. I slowly realised that the Scitsu tach for the old rephased motor would read 2x now that we have gone from a cam fired ignition to a crank fired unit.
However the tacho of the 700 being for a two stroke would now work fine.
Been through the carbs checked float heights and upped the main jet to a 200 as a starting point. Replaced the broken front brake lever and serviced the calipers. Surprisingly most of the callipers were semi seized so cleaned and serviced them so they move freely now. While I had the discs off I took the opportunity to bead blast them.
Some time later,
the pipes are finished just need painting, the oil containment tray is almost done. Now trying to work out a mount for the fuel pump, its an electric on a carb model Honda CBR600. These are the go to pump for the classic sidecars in Europe no need for a regulator. A couple of the outfits here run them without issues so have gone away from the pulse pump. I spent an age today making a fuel T for the carbs.
Mounted a LED for the neutral light and fitted the decompressor lever (the lever is for a small childs push bike), rechecked that there are no collisions with the lever pulled by turning the motor over by hand.
Earlier I rechecked the cam timing because I had convinced myself it was 1 tooth off. Rechecked the timing and the cam had been installed correctly.
A mate is repairing and repainting the body work as we are running out of time the next meeting is at the end of the month and both of us are busy with work.
There is still a lot to do and we need to get the Technical Steward round to sign the bike off.
Yes, more please, thanks for keeping us filled in on your race doings.
Impressive engineering and artisanship!
Impressive engineering and artisanship!
Lovely stuff!
Did you manage to sort out the rubber engine mounts?
Did you manage to sort out the rubber engine mounts?
Thanks for the positive comments, yes the motor is rubber mounted on shock absorber bushes. It is an experiment it will work but don't know how well. My co conspirator has done most of the fab work.
Had a couple of big days in the workshop this weekend. Not a lot to show but that’s the way it goes the 10/90 rule.
The brakes have been bled, in desperation I removed the calipers and set them, so the hose was up and clamped them on a disc with a bungy on the brake lever. After a few hours of this and a bit of occasional tapping the line, I think most of the micro bubbles are out.
The ignition pickups needs setting and spacing off the reluctor. I did this on my test bike but have now found for a second time that the rotor seems to sit in a different position on different cranks. I have set the base advance at 12 degrees. This is mechanically set and entered into the Ignition program which adds advance from that point. If this is incorrect all advance positions above the base advance will be off by the amount of error. The reluctor now sits in the middle of the pickups, with a 0.4mm clearance.
The oil containment tray has been made and the pipes painted. Chain rubber block made and the close out panel on the platform has been repaired.
The battery holder has been made still needs a bit of work, the wiring has been started.
We were hoping to start the motor this weekend with a view to racing next weekend but decided it was an expensive risk to travel and enter an untested bike. In the past we would have just rolled up and seen how it went however changes in track ownership has seen entry fees skyrocket and a removal of free or cheap camping.
The next race is about a month away at a close track and there are a few track days so we should be able to test it, run it in. Will test run next weekend.
The brakes have been bled, in desperation I removed the calipers and set them, so the hose was up and clamped them on a disc with a bungy on the brake lever. After a few hours of this and a bit of occasional tapping the line, I think most of the micro bubbles are out.
The ignition pickups needs setting and spacing off the reluctor. I did this on my test bike but have now found for a second time that the rotor seems to sit in a different position on different cranks. I have set the base advance at 12 degrees. This is mechanically set and entered into the Ignition program which adds advance from that point. If this is incorrect all advance positions above the base advance will be off by the amount of error. The reluctor now sits in the middle of the pickups, with a 0.4mm clearance.
The oil containment tray has been made and the pipes painted. Chain rubber block made and the close out panel on the platform has been repaired.
The battery holder has been made still needs a bit of work, the wiring has been started.
We were hoping to start the motor this weekend with a view to racing next weekend but decided it was an expensive risk to travel and enter an untested bike. In the past we would have just rolled up and seen how it went however changes in track ownership has seen entry fees skyrocket and a removal of free or cheap camping.
The next race is about a month away at a close track and there are a few track days so we should be able to test it, run it in. Will test run next weekend.
Signal, you say you are using an Ignitech, and that you set the static timing at 12 degrees. I am under the impression that you are supposed to set the static timing earlier than your anticipated max advance, and then the ignition module delays the spark, according to your programmed advance for that particular rpm. I will find a link to a blog post from Brad Black, where he is discussing Ignitech in detail
The general Ignitech stuff in this article may be very useful:
https://bikeboy.org/ducati2vignition.html
https://bikeboy.org/ducati2vignition.html
Artic you are correct and that is what the base advance is.
Thank you for the link.
Ignitech have a feature that at low rpm (start) they trigger off the trailing edge of the reluctor bump and at high RPM they trigger off the leading edge of the bump.
The total advance available is then determined by the length of the reluctor bump in degrees + the base advance.
You adjust the advance at a given RPM in the software but you can only go as far as written above and you can't adjust the base.
I used this set up on my last XS Ignitech install (standard crank) and it goes well number 611 in my avatar.
Thank you for the link.
Ignitech have a feature that at low rpm (start) they trigger off the trailing edge of the reluctor bump and at high RPM they trigger off the leading edge of the bump.
The total advance available is then determined by the length of the reluctor bump in degrees + the base advance.
You adjust the advance at a given RPM in the software but you can only go as far as written above and you can't adjust the base.
I used this set up on my last XS Ignitech install (standard crank) and it goes well number 611 in my avatar.
A quick update on Saturday we started the bike. Had a few problems with the starter kick out spring tension. XS650.com to the rescue and the spring was re tensioned. The stock starter will start a 880cc , but using the decom lever helps. Also helping is a Ignitech feature that allows you to turn off the spark for the first revolution giving the starter an easier time spinning up. Need to test to see if the roller will start it.
The bike fired up no problems and the base advance was confirmed, the cam chain still needs final adjustment, and the tappets reset. Was very pleased as I have been wanting to get it running for a long time.
The Honda CB600 fuel pump although designed for carb bikes is over pressurising the bowls, an easy fix with a pressure regulator which is on the way. We used a regulator on our first outfit and once set we had zero problems. I will post photos of setting the regulator as it’s a bit comical, sort of a science experiment in the worst school in town.
The pipes are not too loud but that may change when it winds up.
The hydraulic clutch is heavy, I found that one of the spare master cylinders we carry has a smaller piston master so have fitted that to try. Just need to bleed it properly.
We also dug out a fairing that we had tucked away so will fit that for its first outing.
No photo today nothing new really to show, however when we get the fairing fitted will post some.
The bike fired up no problems and the base advance was confirmed, the cam chain still needs final adjustment, and the tappets reset. Was very pleased as I have been wanting to get it running for a long time.
The Honda CB600 fuel pump although designed for carb bikes is over pressurising the bowls, an easy fix with a pressure regulator which is on the way. We used a regulator on our first outfit and once set we had zero problems. I will post photos of setting the regulator as it’s a bit comical, sort of a science experiment in the worst school in town.
The pipes are not too loud but that may change when it winds up.
The hydraulic clutch is heavy, I found that one of the spare master cylinders we carry has a smaller piston master so have fitted that to try. Just need to bleed it properly.
We also dug out a fairing that we had tucked away so will fit that for its first outing.
No photo today nothing new really to show, however when we get the fairing fitted will post some.
Today the bike came off its stand and went for a quick fang down the road. The fairing is going to have to wait as we don’t have time to fit it before the next meeting. Still a few bits and bobs to do but its is largely done. There is a track day the Friday before the meeting so we will have Friday night to rectify any problems that show up. I am pretty keen to see how this goes against the leading BMWs but not holding out much hope as they are big dollar bikes and very fast. Also keen to see how the new mounts reduce vibration at racing speeds.
That bike is amazing! Lawn looks great and the dog too. The dog doesn't look all that impressed.
Thanks Jim and GLJ. The dogs name is Rocky and right now he is more interested in playing with that pine cone, he can look at sidecars anytime.
The bikes debut was bad. For example we have been using the same method for gear change linkage for years now. On the weekend the gear link rod end stripped out. The front brakes were playing up, and the motor wouldn’t rev past 6000. I suspect either I set the cam up advanced rather than retarded or it was mis ground.
Then as the coup de gras the head gasket blew which pressurised the sump and pumped most of the oil out and the pistons seized. This has knocked the wind out of our sails well and truly and our two favourite meetings are coming up with the bike is entered.
The plan is to refit the old long rod 750 motor, and over time strip the 880 motor and check out the core then possibly rebuild as a 750 with Euro pistons.
No money for a new 880 top end.
Then as the coup de gras the head gasket blew which pressurised the sump and pumped most of the oil out and the pistons seized. This has knocked the wind out of our sails well and truly and our two favourite meetings are coming up with the bike is entered.
The plan is to refit the old long rod 750 motor, and over time strip the 880 motor and check out the core then possibly rebuild as a 750 with Euro pistons.
No money for a new 880 top end.
