wingman1946
1978 XS 650e
Has anyone sourced the legendary nylon brush screws? Or better yet does anyone know their size? Do I unground both brushes or is one supplied with power? I plan to switch to a R&R combo.
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nylon screws
- Thread starter wingman1946
- Start date
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- electrical
hardrock785
XS650 Addict
ill send you some , how many do you need?
hardrock785
XS650 Addict
chief pm me your address
Wingman1946 asked that I try to clarify and simplify the "Three Nylon Screw Mod", so we'll give it a go.
I've not done this mod, and have no plans to do so, but understand the procedure.
This mod was cooked up long ago by other members, and is intended for one specific application scenario:
Modifying a B-type 70-79 alternator to allow the use of later A-type 80-on combined solid-state regulator/rectifier.
Other combined rec/regs may be used, if they are the A-type, which provide a regulated grounding for a powered exciter/rotor.
Reference threads for this mod:
http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4170
http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6477
http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11947
http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18358
http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38428
http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41778
http://www.xs650.com/forum/showpost.php?p=418291&postcount=10
The B-type 70-79 alternators rotor brush configuration:
Regulated power (green wire) is supplied to the outside brush.
The inside brush is grounded through the case screws.
The A-type 80-up alternators rotor brush configuration:
Regulated ground (green wire) is supplied to the outside brush.
The inside brush is powered by switched power (brown wire).
To achieve this, the alternators have these differences:
The alternator cases have different brush block mounts.
The brush blocks have a different screw hole above the inner brush.
The inner brushes have different hold-down brackets.
The wiring lugs to the inner brush go to different screws.
An outside view of the two different brush block configurations:
View attachment 54790
An inside view of the two different brush block configurations:
View attachment 54791
Two styles of regulators exist, and must be properly matched to the respective alternator.
- "B" type regulator that supplies power to a grounded rotor must be used with a 70-79 alternator configuration.
- "A" type regulator that grounds a powered rotor must be used with a 80-up alternator configuration.
This mod allows the use of the later style A-type grounding regulators on a 70-79 alternator.
First, replace the three M4x0.7-12mm steel screws that ground the inner brush with:
Three M4x0.7-12mm Nylon screws that will float/isolate/unground the inner brush.
Next, the black wire that originally went to ground on the inside brush must be supplied switched power by splicing it to a switched power (brown wire).
The original first method is to cut the black wire on the main harness side of the alternator connector, leaving about a 2 inch pigtail, to which a brown extension wire may be soldered and then spliced into the brown wire (switched power) of the new rec/reg.
Another second method that may be easier, is to cut and splice the black wire near where it connects to the regulator connector.
This is my old 1971 XS1B main harness, uncovered to reveal that the black wire simply connects the regulator and alternator brush. There is NO additional connection to this wire. It is independant, and NOT grounded. Grounding for this wire is provided by the inner brush's mounting screws.
As such, once the black wire is cut, the rest of the wire that goes to the old regulator connector is NOT grounded. That end of the black wire must be grounded, or spliced to another grounded black wire, if you expect to get ground at that connector.
A close up of the black wire and the two possible locations for cutting and splicing.
This regulator connector location (on a 71 XS1B, thanx Angus!) is much easier to access, and conveniently near a brown wire.
However, this second method needs to be confirmed, as the black wire may attach to a grounding point within later 72-on main harnesses. A simple test would be to disconnect the black wire at the inner brush, unplug the regulator, then test for continuity of the black wire to ground...
I've not done this mod, and have no plans to do so, but understand the procedure.
This mod was cooked up long ago by other members, and is intended for one specific application scenario:
Modifying a B-type 70-79 alternator to allow the use of later A-type 80-on combined solid-state regulator/rectifier.
Other combined rec/regs may be used, if they are the A-type, which provide a regulated grounding for a powered exciter/rotor.
Reference threads for this mod:
http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4170
http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=6477
http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11947
http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18358
http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38428
http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=41778
http://www.xs650.com/forum/showpost.php?p=418291&postcount=10
The B-type 70-79 alternators rotor brush configuration:
Regulated power (green wire) is supplied to the outside brush.
The inside brush is grounded through the case screws.
The A-type 80-up alternators rotor brush configuration:
Regulated ground (green wire) is supplied to the outside brush.
The inside brush is powered by switched power (brown wire).
To achieve this, the alternators have these differences:
The alternator cases have different brush block mounts.
The brush blocks have a different screw hole above the inner brush.
The inner brushes have different hold-down brackets.
The wiring lugs to the inner brush go to different screws.
An outside view of the two different brush block configurations:
View attachment 54790
An inside view of the two different brush block configurations:
View attachment 54791
Two styles of regulators exist, and must be properly matched to the respective alternator.
- "B" type regulator that supplies power to a grounded rotor must be used with a 70-79 alternator configuration.
- "A" type regulator that grounds a powered rotor must be used with a 80-up alternator configuration.
This mod allows the use of the later style A-type grounding regulators on a 70-79 alternator.
First, replace the three M4x0.7-12mm steel screws that ground the inner brush with:
Three M4x0.7-12mm Nylon screws that will float/isolate/unground the inner brush.
Next, the black wire that originally went to ground on the inside brush must be supplied switched power by splicing it to a switched power (brown wire).
The original first method is to cut the black wire on the main harness side of the alternator connector, leaving about a 2 inch pigtail, to which a brown extension wire may be soldered and then spliced into the brown wire (switched power) of the new rec/reg.
Another second method that may be easier, is to cut and splice the black wire near where it connects to the regulator connector.
This is my old 1971 XS1B main harness, uncovered to reveal that the black wire simply connects the regulator and alternator brush. There is NO additional connection to this wire. It is independant, and NOT grounded. Grounding for this wire is provided by the inner brush's mounting screws.
As such, once the black wire is cut, the rest of the wire that goes to the old regulator connector is NOT grounded. That end of the black wire must be grounded, or spliced to another grounded black wire, if you expect to get ground at that connector.
A close up of the black wire and the two possible locations for cutting and splicing.
This regulator connector location (on a 71 XS1B, thanx Angus!) is much easier to access, and conveniently near a brown wire.
However, this second method needs to be confirmed, as the black wire may attach to a grounding point within later 72-on main harnesses. A simple test would be to disconnect the black wire at the inner brush, unplug the regulator, then test for continuity of the black wire to ground...
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wingman1946
1978 XS 650e
I think I finally have the brush conversion under control,hopefully anyway. What I had not considered was how to hook up the all in one unit. I just got it in the mail today. Of course no instructions... It has only one pigtail with an 8 prong connector that has 7 wires installed. I haven't seen anything about where to connect those. Standard colors. 3 whites...red... green...brown and black
wingman1946
1978 XS 650e
Maybe red to Battery+... black to a ground...3 whites to 3 whites...green to green?? But what to do with a brown. I've already run switched brown to the original black. Would it be possible this piece of equipment might send the power down the brown automatically? The newer bikes that would come with this unit would have a brown power feed and not a black. Looks like for sure I will need a new 5 pin male connector.
Yep, so far, so good. Green to green.
It also goes to switched power (brown).
Check out the wiring diagrams in the Tech: electrical section, for the 80-up models.
Your new rec/reg should match those...
wingman1946
1978 XS 650e
I need 4 if you still have them. And thanks a bunch for the offer. Let me know your costs.
hardrock785
XS650 Addict
chief n wing i sent the screws out the 10th should be there soon
wingman1946
1978 XS 650e
Good deal Hardrock. Thanks a bunch.
wingman1946
1978 XS 650e
Well hear I am again. Finally have the switch to solid state R&R complete. I think. So far nothing is burning and I do get a good charge. The catch..you knew there was one. It shows a charge of 14.45 at an idle of about 1200 rpm. At 3000 rpm it goes up slightly to maybe 14.75.
The battery is a brand new sealed AGM. charged to 12.53. The green wire shows 10 ohms to ground. That allows for the VOM probes showing 3 ohms, 13 ohms total. Black/now brown wire shows 2.2 ohms. How screwy is this?
The battery is a brand new sealed AGM. charged to 12.53. The green wire shows 10 ohms to ground. That allows for the VOM probes showing 3 ohms, 13 ohms total. Black/now brown wire shows 2.2 ohms. How screwy is this?
I am Carbon
shade tree mechanic
this is for anyone looking through this thread.
most local hobby shops will have the 4mm nylon screws in stock
if not they will be able to get them easily
most local hobby shops will have the 4mm nylon screws in stock
if not they will be able to get them easily
wingman1946
1978 XS 650e
I tried the Hobby lobby near home, they had none. Model shop for gas powered and plastic cars, had none, only used metal screws.The fellas listed above were kind enough to help. Thanks guys.
pamcopete
Ride.Enjoy.Life is Simple
It's screwy, but I think you have misread your VOM. The VOM probes should read about decimal 3 (0.3 Ohms) If you are in fact reading 3 Ohms, then either change the battery in the VOM or throw it in the trash.
14.75 is acceptable, especially if the head.light was on (correction from off) at the time you measured. It work like this. The regulator is on the brown wire side of the ignition switch, so it is actually regulating the brown wire voltage, not the battery voltage, so if there is a drop of, say, .5 Volts from the brown wire to the battery, then the battery voltage will be .5 Volts higher because the output of the rectifier goes to the battery on the red wire side of the switch, so in order to satisfy the regulator, the red wire side has to be .5 Volts higher. Meaning if the regulator is perfect but you have .5 Volts drop from the brown wire to the battery, the the battery voltage will be 14.5 + .5 = 15.0 Volts, which leads to a shorter battery life. In actuality, the total drop from the brown wire to the battery can be as high as 1 Volt when you consider losses at the fuse holder, which means the battery voltage will be 14.5 + 1 = 15.5 Volts, which is enough to really do some damage. Things get worse if the regulator is a little high and you can end up with as much as 16 Volts at the battery. When this happens, the battery does not last very long, so people then go out and buy an expensive AGM battery or even a more exotic battery thinking that will fix it, but these batteries are even more sensitive to high voltage, so they are fried in an even shorter time.
I fixed this little phenomena in all my bikes by installing a relay that connects the regulator directly to the battery so it regulates the battery voltage instead of the load on the brown wire side of the switch. Probably explains why I get 5 to 7 years out of my batteries because they are never subjected to a high voltage. Because the output of the alternator / regulator is never excessive, the alternator lasts forever with just a change of brushes every five years or so. My trusty '78/E went 80,000 miles on the same stock alternator with a rebuilt rotor from Alabama when I first got the bike and installed the magic relay along with the Radio shack rectifiers and a Chrysler regulator.. The relay costs $5. The Radio shack rectifier $6. The Chrysler regulator $15.
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If everything is still plugged-in and connected, and you're just probing the wiring as-is, that sounds about right.
The brown wire is still connected to other things that connect to grounds, like coils and indicator lights. AND, they're all in parallel. So, you're just measuring the resistances of everything still hooked-up.
Probing the green, you're still measuring all that stuff on the brown wire, the probe current is simply passing thru the rotor (5-6 ohm) onwards to the brown. PLUS, the green wire connects to the regulator's semiconductor circuits. Resistance tests on semiconductors aren't the same as resistive loads, since semiconductors demonstrate Vr and Vf voltage drops, so the meter's displayed values have more to do with its internal measurement resistances than the device under test.
Basically you've confirmed that your wiring has connectivity, which is good.
Pete's solution to the voltage regulation is rock-solid, and avoids/bypasses funky wiring problems, like dirty/intermittant connectors and compromised wires.
The alternative is to completely inspect and refresh all connectors and wiring, to minimise voltage drops in the system.
For example, the regulator connects to a brown wire, which may connect to a master brown wire in the harness, which goes to a connector in the headlight shell, which goes to the ignition switch (more internal contacts), then to the red power wire, then to another connector in the headlight shell, then back into the harness to another harness connector, then to the fuse (2 connectors), then to the battery connection.
Well, that's the simplified circuit, anyway.
But, how many connectors is that? I lost count...
I am Carbon
shade tree mechanic
thats to bad your local hobby store wouldn't help You. my hobby shop had them
The guys here are great bunch of guys I knew you had been helped Just tring to help others find then too
There are vendors for the screws at ebay too if any one else needs them I just looked there http://www.ebay.com/itm/10PCS-100PC...hash=item3a9f7bac6b:m:mZA1ai3yWvg5kBeZQYTIUqA
http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_odk...lon+screws.TRS0&_nkw=M4+Nylon+screws&_sacat=0
wingman1946
1978 XS 650e
You guys are way over my head. Pamcopete can you turn me on to one of those magic relays you mentioned with hookup instructions? Are you guys saying what I have will work??? I was thinking I would want something like 12.5 volts at idle and 14.5 at high revs.
Pamcopete you were right The VOM was indicating .3ohms.
Two many... I have gone through cleaning all the wiring rear of the tree. Still ready to go after the headlight and handlebars.
Pamcopete you were right The VOM was indicating .3ohms.
Two many... I have gone through cleaning all the wiring rear of the tree. Still ready to go after the headlight and handlebars.
Sorry 'bout that. XSleo and 5twins are better at explaining these things.
A handy thread: http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9625
It's working, but I agree with your target voltages, and should be what you should be getting.
Try this quick test. Instead of measuring your voltages at the battery, measure them at the brown wire somewhere near where it goes to the new regulator, or in its connector.
Then, if the voltages are still too high, suspect a defective regulator.
If the voltages are significantly below your target voltages (like 11.5 to 13.6), suspect wire, connector and ignition switch problems...
