On the road again at 40.............the bike that is

[robinc]

Thanks for the reply 5twins. I will do that that tomorrow. Fortunately I threw a set on a parts order to justify shipping costs so there's some in the parts bin.

Let's hope it's that simple....lol.

Take care.

 

[Mailman]

Well Robin, we really do seem to be running in the same circles dont we? I know it gets a little frustrating when you feel you are doing your best work and keep coming up short. You and I may not be the best mechanics on the forum but you know what? We've got perseverance! Sooner or later we will simply wear this problem down! Haha!

 

[robinc]

Let's hope we wear it down before it wears us down buddy. Although I think you and I are cut out of the same bolt of cloth, we don't give up without a fight. As are most here. 5twins just reminded me of the fact that we are trying to get what are basically antiques now going again. I guess we should expect some challenges. The help we are getting blows me away. This place continues to amaze me. These guys are busy, have lives of their own and yet still find time to pitch in and help those of us who are struggling but willing to learn. Wow.

Thanks for the encouragement and good luck with your carbs. Shake them floats and check your float valves aren't gummed up.
Be well my friend.

 

[Mailman]

You are so right Robin about this forum. I have joined forums for Triumphs, BMW 's, my V-Strom, Indians, Victory, even Zero electric motorcycles, and none have been anything like this forum. The level of comradery and the spirit of genuine helpfulness here is unlike any I've seen anywhere else. We have an unbelievable support system on this forum.
Ah well, a little rest and we shall resume the good fight.
Take care
Bob

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

Hang in there, guys. These bikes ran great when new, so we know it's not a design or engineering problem. Just a matter of of chasing out some well entrenched gremlins.

...Have you put a timing light on it and watched, especially at idle and revving up and down a bit?

This is a good one. Watch the actual strobing of the light. If the timing light is a good one, the strobing should be perfectly repetitive, with no skips in the flashing. Problems with points, condensers, coils, and coil wiring will demonstrate inconsistent flashing...

 

[gggGary]

Also check the advance mechanism / springs for smooth action. Open the RH cover and use the timing light, the advance rod should be removed, cleaned, a bit of light grease or oil, as part of any XS650 wake up drill. Plenty of threads about the weights, springs. The snap test works but most of the threads ignore where the crank should be for this test. If the points are "on the ramp" they will drag and kind of spoil the spring back test.
Always good to get them running but for a bike that I want to put miles on it's hard to beat a Pamco then the e-advance...... It's fun to spend other peoples money.

 

[robinc]

Hang in there, guys.

This is a good one. Watch the actual strobing of the light. If the timing light is a good one, the strobing should be perfectly repetitive, with no skips in the flashing. Problems with points, condensers, coils, and coil wiring will demonstrate inconsistent flashing...

Thanks 2M, I will do that before changing the points to see if this occurs, and then after. Help to confirm points or indicate a problem elsewhere.

Also check the advance mechanism / springs for smooth action.

Thanks again for your advice gggGary, I did this service earlier this spring, and think I checked snap back with advance rod removed. Meant to have a look at it with a timing light next time I had it out after reading that suggestion awhile back. Man, my memory...... if it doesn't go on a list. Will do now, thanks for the reminder.

It's fun to spend other peoples money.

LOL.....ya that's easier isn't it. Both are on the future updates wish list, just a question of when we pull the trigger.

Thank you again for your time and suggestions gentlemen.

 

[robinc]

Rather than just rushing ahead, changing the points and hoping all is good to get out for a ride on this Holiday and the the nicest day of the year we've had so far this summer, (enough griping), I decided to spend today's shop time being schooled. I always told my kids, 'anytime spent learning something new is time well spent', and it's high time to stop being intimidated by these electrics.

Fired up easy, first kick. Hanging/ erratic idle apparent from the get go.

Have you put a timing light on it and watched, especially at idle and revving up and down a bit?

This is a good one. Watch the actual strobing of the light. If the timing light is a good one, the strobing should be perfectly repetitive, with no skips in the flashing. Problems with points, condensers, coils, and coil wiring will demonstrate inconsistent flashing...

Nice steady beam, no skips in the flashing. But I expect my made in Taiwan timing light may not be the best.
But it sure showed how the advance weights weights are hanging up. Man, it's the things you don't put on the list and forget to do that come back to haunt you. This might be a chicken and the egg thing though. Are the advance weights hanging open causing the high idle or are the points condensers bad, causing the high idle and weights to hang open?

The weights will snap closed if I quickly snap them, but if I slowly remove my finger they will hang open. Turned engine to get points off ramps. Advance rod was lubed with high moly grease this spring but may need to shorten the springs. Will see what happens after new points are installed and address it then if necessary, unless anyone thinks I really should do it now.

Timing check: Left side - idle at right line: slightly retarded as per 5twins recommendations, full advance no bounce past the line
Right side - idle at right line, full advance some bounce past the line
Timing issues will get dealt with and reset after new points are installed.

Any "unusual" arcing at points?

Yup, on both sides. More so on the right side which is the side running rougher. (Go figure) Left side nice smooth steady idle.
Looks like gggGary, that you and 5twins nailed it on this one. Glad new points came in the last order, just to have on hand.

Have points ever been changed or is it on some other ignition?

Stock ignition, probably stock points.

Has there been a sync done while running?

Not yet

spark plug caps tested for correct ohms?

New 5K caps and new wires

just for kicks n grins? try a set of BP6ES ,1 grade hotter plug.

Will get some to have for testing.

ground wires correctly placed on upper motor mounts?

Main harness to coil mount ground good. Engine ground on cylinder head steady plate good.

Condensers checked?

Had a hard time finding info on testing condensers. Might be in the Yamaha Factory manual but it's at buddies and couldn't get it back today.
Found this link from an old thread: http://mgaguru.com/mgtech/ignition/ig129.htm

My old analog meter would not read anything, no needle sweep on it's only 2 ohm settings, so used one of my digital meters.
Fortunately have a new condenser from a recent parts order just to have on hand. Meter climbed to infinity.

Once again, no Factory Manual today, nothing in Clymer, but Haynes says:
"To check, separate the contact points by hand when the ignition is switched on. If a spark occurs across the points as they are
separated by hand, the condenser associated with that set of points can be regarded as unserviceable."

Yup, both points. So I don't know what to think. Passed the first test, failed the second. I'm going to replace it anyways but is there a better more definitive test? One manual mentioned charging by hooking up to a battery and then testing but I felt like that was similar to what was happening in step #4 on the above mgaguru.com post.

Voltage at coils checked

Yup, over 12 volts on R/W wire to coils.

Also tested coils to see what's up. Might be tests in factory manual but did some I found on the site. I have an extra used coil so tested that one as well.

There were other tests that I came across that I couldn't figure out how to do. Based on my searches and these findings I think all is good. If I'm missing anything or any other tests that should be done, please let me know.

Put an inline spark tester on and watch in dim light.

Gotta get one, stores were closed here today....lol.

Always good to get them running but for a bike that I want to put miles on it's hard to beat a Pamco then the e-advance...... It's fun to spend other peoples money.

Looking at XS650Direct I think this will be north of $400 by a bit. It's in the plans and on the want to do this list, gotta start saving my pennies. Before I take that move I really want to get this running well in stock form. Maybe I like a challenge, maybe I'm a masochist? Probably both.

So, next shop day available, install new points and condensers.

Thanks again everyone for your help and support.

As always, any comments, suggestions, corrections welcomed.

 

[Mailman]

Robin,
Before I installed any of my Pamco components I had a brand new points set and new plugs that I installed. I went through all the tune up rituals, timing chain, valve adjustment, timing , carburetor adjustments, and I serviced my advance mechanism. I wanted to make sure that the bike was running good BEFORE I installed electronic ignition components.
If I had it to do over again I would have run the bike like that for at least several hundred miles as per Gary's suggestion.
However, I had already ordered all the Pamco components and it was just sitting there on my workbench and I jumped the gun a bit. I went through all the tune up procedures with the news points and all and as soon as I was satisfied that the bike was running right, I ripped it all out and installed the electronic ignition.
I should've been more patient and taken my time with it.
Having said that though, the Pamco ignition was a real improvement , faster starting and steadier idle.

 

[robinc]

Hey Bob, nice to see you and your lady had a great day. We skipped the chilled Canadians for a pitcher of Sangria with our steaks today....lol.

I had done all the tune up drills and it was running really well with the first set of 78/79 carbs I had on it until they warmed up and the leaking throttle shaft issue due to blunt force trauma on those carbs raised it's ugly head. Or, in addition maybe running it a bit raised these other issues. Hard for me to tell but one of the gurus likely would have picked up on it earlier. Either way, I plan to do my best to get it all sorted in stock form and then like you, do the upgrade. I think I have this new set of 78/79's well sorted.

I would have done the exact same thing as you. And that wasn't the wrong thing to do in any way shape or form.

I am the second owner of this bike since 1990 and rode it until 2008 when life got in the way and I parked it. Up until then, with regular maintenance as best I knew how, it ran great. And my plan is to be be able to say that again!

Some day Pamco's with e-advances will be installed, and I know the reliability of that will be awesome. Boy 2 bikes to do that on......ouch.

You take care of yourself. I am thinking and wishing well for you with your new carb issues.

Be well my honorary Canuck friend!

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

A simple condenser test. Swap the condenser's 2 plugins. See if problems switch sides. Ditto with the arcing. Another fun read:

http://www.xs650.com/threads/condensors-capacitance-arcing-at-points.46176/

 

[robinc]

Thanks 2M. I saw that thread in my searching and had to do a little Googlin'. Wondered what an nF unit was. Microfarads, micromicrofarads, picofarads, made my head hurt. Followed the link in gggGary's post but my cheapie analog meter wouldn't register any needle sweep.

Also came across that suggestion to swap leads, didn't bother once I saw sparking on both sets of points, but thank you for the reminder.
I will do that, an easy test to see if the running rough switches sides.

I guess the chances of both condensers going bad at the same time are pretty slim?

Thanks again and have a good one!

 

[gggGary]

Condensers (capacitors) die of old age all the time, My testing shows about 1/3 of the ones on my XS barn bikes are bad. probably the most "time limited" electronic component around. The good news is while they can be found in different values for engine use, they all are "about the same". so briggs and stratton or ford "tune up kit" condensers will work fine. I'll keep my fingers crossed for you!
You HAVE to do the on a running bike sync also, that's non-negotiable. a temporary fuel tank makes it much easier. But it can be done by blocking the rear of the stock tank up a bit and careful fiddling with the screw. I use gauges but many most here use a homemade balance tube.

 

[robinc]

Thanks gggGary. Once I get these items sorted and get a decent idle, fine tuning carbs is next on the list.

Haven't even done the dead cylinder drill yet, just had to ride a bit.....lol.

I have a remote fuel tank. As you know, no hose barbs on these manifolds but I do have some threaded nipples for the carb bodies that I can attach vacuum hoses to for that manometer that I will finally get around to building.

Have a great 4th of July!

 

[MaxPete]

Hi Robin:

FWIW - an "nF" is a nano-farad which is 0.0000000001 (i.e. 9 zeros to the right of the decimal point or in exponential notation, 10**-9) farads - so it is a pretty small quantity. Incidentally, the unit of capacitance is named after British physicist, Michael Faraday and that is why the "F" in the unit is written with an upper case letter - because it is a person's name, as are the "Watt", the "Volt" and the "Ohm".

Here is what Wikipedia says about the Farad unit (and note that one farad is actually a LOT of capactiance so you will seldom see a 1.0 or larger farad capacitor.

Definition
One farad is defined as the capacitance across which, when charged with one coulomb, there is a potential difference of one volt.[1] Equally, one farad can be described as the capacitance which stores a one-coulomb charge across a potential difference of one volt.[2] The relationship between capacitance, charge and potential difference is linear. For example, if the potential difference across a capacitor is halved, the quantity of charge stored by that capacitor will also be halved.

For most applications, the farad is an impractically large unit of capacitance. Most electrical and electronic applications are covered by the following SI prefixes:

• 1 mF (millifarad, one thousandth (10−3) of a farad) = 1000 μF = 1000000 nF
• 1 μF (microfarad, one millionth (10−6) of a farad) = 0.000 001 F = 1000 nF = 1000000 pF
• 1 nF (nanofarad, one billionth (10−9) of a farad) = 0.001 μF = 1000 pF
• 1 pF (picofarad, one trillionth (10−12) of a farad)

Energy = 1/2 Volt**2

Here endeth the lesson....

Pete

 

[robinc]

Ah, you're hurting my head again Pete.....lol.

Have a good one buddy!

 

[MaxPete]

....sorry...its the engineering professor in me.

Every once in a while that ding-dong sneaks out and....well, you know.

 

[5twins]

I never tested a condenser. If I see big and frequent sparks at the points while idling (occasional small sparks are normal), I change them. If I find the points sets badly pitted, I change them. If I don't see either, I'll run those condensers forever until they do die. Apparently, the condenser is electrically matched with a certain rating to the ignition system. If it's off that mark, either above or below it, the points pit. I guess which half of the points set the pit forms on will tell you whether the condenser is above or below it's rating spec, but I can't tell you which pits what side.

I do keep new and used condenser sets "on the shelf" in case a bike I'm working on needs them. I'll try a used set 1st and if it's good, it stays there. If you do have a good, well-matched-to-the-system set, you should never change them unless, of course, they die. Due to manufacturing tolerances, you have a very good chance of the new set not matching the system as well as the old set and pitting the points more.

 

[MaxPete]

I never tested a condenser. If I see big and frequent sparks at the points while idling (occasional small sparks are normal), I change them. If I find the points sets badly pitted, I change them. If I don't see either, I'll run those condensers forever until they do die. Apparently, the condenser is electrically matched with a certain rating to the ignition system. If it's off that mark, either above or below it, the points pit. I guess which half of the points set the pit forms on will tell you whether the condenser is above or below it's rating spec, but I can't tell you which pits what side.

I do keep new and used condenser sets "on the shelf" in case a bike I'm working on needs them. I'll try a used set 1st and if it's good, it stays there. If you do have a good, well-matched-to-the-system set, you should never change them unless, of course, they die. Due to manufacturing tolerances, you have a very good chance of the new set not matching the system as well as the old set and pitting the points more.

That is a very good practice 5T - I have saved Lucille's original condensers and will test them again when an opportunity comes up.

Cheers,

Pete

 

[retiredgentleman]

For a points type ignition, for any car, truck or motorcycle, you can use any 0.22 microfarad capacitor. That is the size that works.
In the old days the picofarad size was also referred to as a "micromicro" farad or "micromic". I know, useless trivia.