Record Breaking Charging Issue

XSAndy

XSAndy

XSAndy
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Okily dokily.
I reckon this one could be a record breaker.
Not charging. XS650SH 81, but it’s the Australian one so it’s running on points. Oh yeah and separate mechanical regulator and rectifier. It’s as stock as possible. Have read loads, tested loads so let me give you a breakdown.
Battery good. Deka AGM.
Brushes exceed recommended length.
Rotor tests good across the rings.
Regulator tests good according to the Haynes manual across brown green and red wires. Correct resistances.
Was stupid enough to take it to a classic bike mechanic for the first time in 20 years ownership to get some diagnostics. Was told it was the rectifier. $280 later. Claimed to have tested the stator and said it was good.

New rectifier fitted by me- no change except for the weight of the wallet.

Going for the record on replacement parts now so….. replaced the loom with a genuine NOS original beauty. Cleaned all contacts on plugs during install and whilst there replaced coils ( not done on original rebuild 15 years ago. )
Oh by the way it runs beautifully right now off the battery. Best ever in fact due to nailing the timing in another thread.
Question: Should there be a small magnetic pull to the rotor when bike is off?…. Seems to suggest a leakage of current somewhere. This magnetic force increases when key on but is not strong enough to give a positive slap test.
was producing 12.5 volts at the battery before new loom now gets to 13 but that’s with the regulator cranked up to max.
Did not touch the earth straps or battery cables. Checked / inspected the earth and it looks very good.
Ok so what would you like to know or see?
I checked setup of brushes and brush holders tonight.
Maybe after all the work it just needs a ride in?…….? Can’t ride it till new air filters arrive. Must have been degreaser which eats them. ( Lesson learnt there.)
I have to rev up to around 4 K and hold it there for the voltage to slowly tick up. Eventually getting to the 13 Volts across the battery.
Happy to be called a dummy on any point at all. Happy to keep learning till they nail the lid on….
Thanks so much in advance.
 
Last edited:
XSAndy said:
Question: Should there be a small magnetic pull to the rotor when bike is off?…. Seems to suggest a leakage of current somewhere. This magnetic force increases when key on but is not strong enough to give a positive slap test.
Click to expand...
There's a curious condition; there should be no magnetism @ rotor with the key off. Off the top of my head, I don't know how it relates to the charging issue (maybe). I'd like to know if any voltage is present on the brown wire after the switch (really anywhere) with the key switch off, but particularly at the regulator connector. And then what is the voltage reading on that brown wire @ regulator with key on and how does that voltage compare with voltage at the battery.
 
Last edited:
Yes Sir

was producing 12.5 volts at the battery before new loom now gets to 13 but that’s with the regulator cranked up to max.

I have had 2x 1980 with the same setup.

I Would recommend you to have a look here on the Forum about what ( Electronic ) regulator is a replacement and is available over the counter in Sydney.

Plug it in see what happens .Be careful install it the right way .. It should not set you back that much.
below $ 20 US I would guess.
You probably will need it sooner or later. Should it not help. The setup is fresh with new regulator and rectifier.

Can be other things .As the stator winding or a short somewhere. But I have had problems with the stock regulator and removed it.
 
Jan_P said:
Yes Sir

was producing 12.5 volts at the battery before new loom now gets to 13 but that’s with the regulator cranked up to max.

I have had 2x 1980 with the same setup.

I Would recommend you to have a look here on the Forum about what ( Electronic ) regulator is a replacement and is available over the counter in Sydney.

Plug it in see what happens .Be careful install it the right way .. It should not set you back that much.
below $ 20 US I would guess.
You probably will need it sooner or later. Should it not help. The setup is fresh with new regulator and rectifier.

Can be other things .As the stator winding or a short somewhere. But I have had problems with the stock regulator and removed it.
Click to expand...
Thanks but in the interest of keeping my bike stock I choose not to go to permanent magnet( although I seemed to have achieved that by accident) or electronic components. For me a classic bike is about keeping it classic rather than turning it into a modern. It’s done ok for 40 years …
 
XSAndy said:
Thanks but in the interest of keeping my bike stock I choose not to go to permanent magnet( although I seemed to have achieved that by accident) or electronic components. For me a classic bike is about keeping it classic rather than turning it into a modern. It’s done ok for 40 years …
Click to expand...

Nothing to do with permanent magnets.
The regulator is an electric component that performs the Charging .Either
The stock Mechanical or Electronic.
If it not solves it you can put the Mechanical back in .Or if it solves it the Stock back in
keeping the Problem ( Joking ) .
Or buying a working mechanical one.
It can be $ 20 dollars in the drain .But it is quickly done. Saving the time Finding the Problem
Which can be difficult.
I have had problems with the mechanical regulator and replaced it.
But feel free try other fault finding procedures
Service manuals There

https://thexscafedotcom.wordpress.com/2011/01/10/xs650-manuals/
 
DogBunny said:
There is a tech link at the top of each Forum page. On the tech page, under "Electrical," you will find the following:
How-To: Diagnose charging system problems (charging system guide)
Start there. Report back if that doesn't fix it or you need help after reading the guide.
Click to expand...
Ok so have looked at this before.
1) Battery Good. Headlight works and brightens when revs increase.
2) As mentioned slap test fails. It will work when the engine cover is off as it closer to the rotor but no joy when cover is on.
3) I'm mildly confused about the definition of solid state- are you talking electronic? Mine are "mechanical" and separate. Whe I connected the green wire to ground I blew the main 20A fuse, and started to get smoke/heat in the plastic plug where the green wire was. ot pretty and not keen to do that again with the new loom. Never even got a chance to consider revving the engine.
4) Things changed big time and I don't think I'm on "solid state" so i presumed the remainder of the info may not apply.
Will push on and complete these tests and will get back to you with results and answers to JPDEVOLs questions too.
 
jpdevol said:
There's a curious condition; there should be no magnetism @ rotor with the key off. Off the top of my head, I don't know how it relates to the charging issue (maybe). I'd like to know if any voltage is present on the brown wire after the switch (really anywhere) with the key switch off, but particularly at the regulator connector. And then what is the voltage reading on that brown wire @ regulator with key on and how does that voltage compare with voltage at the battery.
Click to expand...
Could it be to do with a strange prev owner brown wire that jumps from a plastic connector block to the double yellows inside the headlight bucket? That could be a mystery to solve somewhere down the track. Have put it back in when loom change done, but can't for the life of me work out what its does, even with the wiring diagrams. Double yellows at 6 o'clock(First diagram). Brown wire comes out of plastic block in centre just below 9 o'clock. Old pre loom update in closeup. Just trying to check colour on plug. Ah there we go. Light green.
This is a bit of a side track and has not been an issue over the last 20 years but another mystery right now. (Remember no stand relay or other US ad-ons with this model)
 

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Just to get on the same page: with mechanical regulator, you should have black and green wires at the rotor brushes - on your system the green wire carries positive voltage from regulator the black is ground.

Also on early bikes (points) a double yellow connector at the headlight is normal

The magnetism - I think - is at least, a clue to the charging issue. If the rotor is good @ 5 Ohms between rings - we're looking for an issue causing insufficient current through it
 
I'm pondering the brown "jumper" from the yellow @ headlight. I reckon one way is to unplug it from yellow and see what no longer works...
Could be intended to power dash lights from headlight circuit, or conversely powering headlight from dash light circuit:shrug: Good to know it's there for diagnosis (who knows what impact it may have)
 
The double yellow in the bucket is the high beam connection. One of the yellows comes from the hi/lo switch and turns the high beam on. The other runs to the high beam indicator up on the dash or in one of the instruments. When the high beam is turned on, power also runs up that 2nd yellow to the indicator light and turns it on. There shouldn't be a brown wire spliced into them. Brown is normally switched power so it would turn on the high beam and it's indicator light in the dash any time the key was turned on.
 
That may well be no charging at all
was producing 12.5 volts at the battery before new loom now gets to 13 but that’s with the regulator cranked up to max.

If points assuming the old type Alternator
Please measure the Voltage on each Brush to ground power on
 
jpdevol said:
Just to get on the same page: with mechanical regulator, you should have black and green wires at the rotor brushes - on your system the green wire carries positive voltage from regulator the black is ground.

Also on early bikes (points) a double yellow connector at the headlight is normal

The magnetism - I think - is at least, a clue to the charging issue. If the rotor is good @ 5 Ohms between rings - we're looking for an issue causing insufficient current through it
Click to expand...
Ok this sounds logical. Could the steel nut on the end of the rotor near a field for years and becoming magnetised, explain the low level magnetic effect?
More testing:
Battery post a fancy charge that ”reconditions and is specific for AGMs of motorcycle size”( marketing or reality🤷🏻‍♂️) =13.06V
key on=12.13V
key off= slowly climbing from 12.6V
Brown wire to/ from regulator key off= 100mV, key on=10.3V
Rotor is good at 5 ohms between rings.
Will have to check the wires at the rotor brushes.

Apologies for piecemeal info but no wifi 2 storeys underground. Bobbing up and down like a gopher. Or given the time of year groundhog?
Can you clarify solid state vs other. I was around when radios became solid state and it meant they became electronic. Same same? So I’m not on solid state?
Is there still benefit in me doing all the tests listed by curly if I’m mechanical?
That brown jumper from the double yellow goes to handlebar controls on headlight on/ off side so we are getting closer to an explanation.
I’ll run through every other test I can find in links and threads tonight to make things as easy as possible for you. Very much appreciate your advice and experience.
 
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Residual magnetism? - I've not noticed it - maybe possible (perhaps Jim can comment). The 100mV, key off @ regulator is essentially zero, so I don't think there is stray voltage key off. However, the 2V of drop (12.13 to 10.3) is excessive - most of that may be in the key switch itself (needs cleaned) along with all the connectors enroute.

Next is testing the voltage on the green wire to the brush - I'm guessing it's gonna be lower than 10.3. May be needing the regulator innards (contacts) cleaned, perhaps replaced.

Solid state does = transistors vs coils & tubes

Light green wire should be from Reserve Lighting unit to a dash bulb indicating headlight failure; so I'm still confused what the jumper from highbeam is accomplishing (I think that whole 4-pin block connector is from the "pilot box" dash.
 
Jan_P said:
Nothing to do with permanent magnets.
The regulator is an electric component that performs the Charging .Either
The stock Mechanical or Electronic.
If it not solves it you can put the Mechanical back in .Or if it solves it the Stock back in
keeping the Problem ( Joking ) .
Or buying a working mechanical one.
It can be $ 20 dollars in the drain .But it is quickly done. Saving the time Finding the Problem
Which can be difficult.
I have had problems with the mechanical regulator and replaced it.
But feel free try other fault finding procedures
Service manuals There

https://thexscafedotcom.wordpress.com/2011/01/10/xs650-manuals/
Click to expand...
Yeah you’re right. Sorry my mistype. Not keen to go electronic on reg/ rectifier either. We purist can be a bit painful like that.
 
One thing I should've noted; I don't have a schematic for an '81 Oceana model - I'm using a '78 US schematic as a reasonable substitute - so if you see something that doesn't jibe with what I'm saying - holler-out (we've seen differences in wiring on different export markets that we're unaware of)
 
jpdevol said:
One thing I should've noted; I don't have a schematic for an '81 Oceana model - I'm using a '78 US schematic as a reasonable substitute - so if you see something that doesn't jibe with what I'm saying - holler-out (we've seen differences in wiring on different export markets that we're unaware of)
Click to expand...
I think it’s a pretty good approximation. Headlight forced on feature not present and safety/ stand relay not present.
More data for perusal. If you need anything else just let me know.

Yes one green wire and one black to brushes.
Voltage to ground on green=10.3V , black= 6.6mV

Brown wire entering fuse box =2mV key off, 11V key on. ( Note all fuse connections etc should be great with new loom. No wiggling as previous. A while ago main fuse was so hot it started to melt the fuse box- this was another item that encouraged me to insert new loom)

Voltage on key switch wires at block in headlight bucket. All 1.1mV key off
In order on block.
Blue/ Black= 1.1mV, Blue= 1.1mV, Red/Yel= 10.9V
Red/ White= 10.12V Blue/White=10.1V. Red/White=10.7V

I hope this helps. 🤞🏻.
 

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