Some things to consider, re; rear brakes

How do you use your brakes

  • rear only I don't HAVE a front

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • mostly rear the front can throw down the bike!

    Votes: 0 0.0%

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    29

gggGary

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http://www.cycleworld.com/techniques-and-procedures-master-rear-brake-ienatsch-tuesday

Slid bikes a time or just, never you mind, but uh not since umm Tuesday on the FJR. The hot rod XS Madness nearly got me, an older tire and "more effective than my other XS' drum" disk rear made for an "unusual" corner entry line. My current riding stable now has a couple of XS with drum rear, one with upgraded front, a royal star venture cruiser which is long and HEAVY, now has upgraded front brakes with a smaller front MC on the way, and the FJR with "sport bike" freshly redone forks and front brakes. It can get tricky remembering the braking ratio for each of the bikes for best stopping.
Bit of a story; last fall in Georgia on the RSV a single high hanging stop light on a steep down grade confused me about where the stop line was. I grabbed a LOAD of front brake to make the stop, even that old pig got light on the rear and the worn rear tire danced a bit before I got the bike halted.
 
I actually really appreciate the engine braking of these XStwins. Gear selection and deceleration by compression is enjoyable. Not to dismiss the need to know how to properly panic brake under a unforseen need.. My rear drum is not likely to lock up the rear end on good pavement, I don't think.. -RT
 
Good article Gary, maybe a sticky with these riding articles...........Road safety riding

had an 73 DT250 and used it for road transport a fair bit. I would lock up the back on on purpose, (on the road), and go in opposite lock slides and was getting good at pin point stops facing the way wanted to when coming to a stop. One day i got to far one way and a slight shift in the steering slung the back the other way so fast, the wheels were level with the tank before i knew what had happened.

My 83 heritage has a drum rear and i had that set so it could not lock up even when i was standing on the rear brake lever.
 
I won't hang the bike on the engine .I will however adjust controls and endlessly practice matching "truck range" That is , to match input and output shaft speeds prior to releasing the clutch .
I also practice getting to rear brake first , if possible, prior to a full emergency grab of the front brake. it seems to squat and stretch the bike while making more effective use of the front brake .
I also tend to lightly trail brake , rear only , to stabilize the bike on corner entry as well as keeping all the driveline on one side of slack so releasing clutch on corner exit does not upset the bike .
I don't even know if it's something I can teach . I just know when it came to corners I was usually the first one there, the first one away from and the last one to straighten one out ...

Now as for the full on panic stop ? Practice . More practice , and practice the situational awareness that allows that extra 1/10th of a second you need.

~kop
 
That article seems to say you should have a very small disc and a very small caliper on the back. In other words decrease the rear braking ability as much as possible. That may be fine for "racing", but for my gentle street riding, I like my rear brake to have as much braking power as my front brake. I have a Brembo 4 piston caliper on the front and on the back as well. The rear disc is a little smaller diameter so slightly less braking power there. It gives me a good safety feeling, knowing that I have powerful brakes.

I drive defensively, and thus avoid situations that demand hard braking, but its good to have the powerful brakes when an emergency occurs, such as animals jumping out in front of you.
 
^You don't need a powerful rear because when the weight comes off it from deceleration it will lock up very easily. If it does lock up it's useless and could even cause a highside if it slides out of line with the direction of travel. That is why I like my drum rear, harder to lock up. I even have my pedal mounted lower than normal to make it still harder to lock up. Also prefer the drum rear because oil liable to get on disk back there.
 
Yes xjwmx.......................I read the same thing you say, in the magazine article. I don't agree with any of it. I have learned over the years how to modulate the front and rear disc brakes. I don't like drum brakes, they are weak and can fade with hard use. I consider them as something left over from the horse and buggy days. I have had a few emergencies with my bike, and strong brakes have helped me to not get injured.
Notice that cars and trucks don't use drum brakes anymore. Why ....................because they are very poor brakes.
I've had cars with disc brakes on the front and drum brakes on the rear. The rear drum brakes were useless. They never did any braking at all. You could not keep them adjusted. Self adjusters never work.
My present car has 4 wheel disc brakes. The braking is fantastic. I would never buy a vehicle without 4 wheel disc brakes.

To those who want reduced braking power at the rear, I'm sure you will be happy, so enjoy them.
 
Can't agree with the comparison of bikes and cars when it comes to braking..............In a hard braking, and to a lesser percent in any braking situation, at least 1/2 of your body weight, (probably being conservative), is going to be shifted to the front of the bike, the bikes center of gravity will shift forward as the forks compress................A car will have a very, very small percentage doing the same.........

I did my rear wheel slides on the DT on the tar sealed road as a learning experience. Although at the time i was more into just doing it for fun, noise and thrill, it would help my reactions in a situation especially if the tail end locked up and i was in a slide situation.

It doesn't matter how defensive we are when riding there will always be something that is not see that will test any one of us at some time. But hey, I am not criticizing your set up or what makes you feel comfortable on your bike
 
retiredgentleman,I didn't read the article yet, so I didn't know I was just saying the same thing. I was stating why strong rear brakes are overkill on a bike. At least the xs. The rear drums are strong enough to skid , esp. if the front brake is on, more strength doesn't do anything.
 
I don't really think consciously about it. It's part of my subconscious, like thinking about balance while walking. I keep all the controls adjusted per factory specs, avoids relearning.

Kinda like your "countersteering" thread. Been doing it for so long that it's second nature...
 
As much as I enjoy the feel of a strong rear brake for normal riding, I've locked up plenty of rear brakes in emergency stops. With modern bikes having strong enough front brakes to lift the rear wheel off the ground, it's pretty easy to see why an overpowered rear brake isn't going to help anything. The biggest culprit was my supermoto. The front brake on that bike was a monster, and the bike itself was so tall and light, normal 2 finger braking to a stop sign would want to lift the rear wheel, just like when you were a kid on a bmx bike. That back wheel was always sliding around.

On an XS with less powerful brakes... there are plenty of opinions, and by all means set up your own bike how you want it, but there's already plenty of well documented information from the past decades telling us what's the safest way to brake in emergency situations, and none of them involve using extra rear brake. You learn to adjust though. I've ridden plenty of bicycles since I was a kid that only had a rear brake, and life was fine.

As far as 4 wheeled vehicles... my previous generation Tacoma(not sure if the current version has 4 disks or not) had front disk brakes and drum rears. It worked perfectly fine, and people actually liked it because the rear drums lasted forever without needing adjusted or parts needing replaced. They sold aftermarket disc brake kits for them, but everyone I saw that bought one complained that it was overpowered and caused problems. It's amusing how as soon as we get something a little nicer and a little more modern, we instantly wonder how we ever survived with the old one, that we previously thought was great.
 
I knew my post would be controversial!
You guys are all talking about what happens when you apply the front brake very strongly. Yes the weight shifts heavily to the front wheel, and yes the rear of the bike gets light causing the rear wheel to lose its grip and braking ability. I recall one time, when it just started to rain, and I applied the front brake too aggressively, the rear of my bike slid around to the point where my bike was sliding sideways down the road. (that was an XS500C, not my present XS650 SE). Yes I agree, the rear brake is of no value under that condition.
But I'm not talking about that condition.

A strong rear brake is worthwhile when you use it by itself, or if you modulate it at the same time as the front brake. I know how to apply the front brake and then add in rear braking such that the front is doing maybe 2/3 of the braking and the rear is doing maybe 1/3. Your right hand and your right foot work together and you get powerful braking. This is not what you lads are talking about.
This kind of braking is very useful if you are coming down the side of a steep mountain pass, and your speed has gotten too high. I have likely geared down to 4th gear, but still need braking to feel in control. Both brakes are working together, and there has been little if any weight shift to the front of the bike.

With my car's 4 wheel disc brakes, it has electronic brake force distribution. This means it has a control valve that reduces the hydraulic pressure to the rear brakes in proportion to the pressure in the front brakes. It works very well. This is the first car I have ever had that has working rear brakes. The other cars with rear drum brakes, simply had no rear braking.
 
As much as I enjoy the feel of a strong rear brake for normal riding, I've locked up plenty of rear brakes in emergency stops. With modern bikes having strong enough front brakes to lift the rear wheel off the ground, it's pretty easy to see why an overpowered rear brake isn't going to help anything. The biggest culprit was my supermoto. The front brake on that bike was a monster, and the bike itself was so tall and light, normal 2 finger braking to a stop sign would want to lift the rear wheel, just like when you were a kid on a bmx bike. That back wheel was always sliding around.

On an XS with less powerful brakes... there are plenty of opinions, and by all means set up your own bike how you want it, but there's already plenty of well documented information from the past decades telling us what's the safest way to brake in emergency situations, and none of them involve using extra rear brake. You learn to adjust though. I've ridden plenty of bicycles since I was a kid that only had a rear brake, and life was fine.

As far as 4 wheeled vehicles... my previous generation Tacoma(not sure if the current version has 4 disks or not) had front disk brakes and drum rears. It worked perfectly fine, and people actually liked it because the rear drums lasted forever without needing adjusted or parts needing replaced. They sold aftermarket disc brake kits for them, but everyone I saw that bought one complained that it was overpowered and caused problems. It's amusing how as soon as we get something a little nicer and a little more modern, we instantly wonder how we ever survived with the old one, that we previously thought was great.
Yes, the rear brakes would last forever, because they were doing no braking at all. Adding rear discs to that same vehicle is no good unless you add an electronic distribution valve to lessen and control the hydraulic pressure to the rear.
 
05 prius disk front, drum rears, pretty sophisticated ABS, traction control and stability control. Flogged hard for 100's of thousands with a lot of weight in the back, on a mail route. Only issue with the drums was the brake lining dust would build up and cause VERY sensitive rear brakes when cold. Rear lock up was common. Even grinding the drum edge ridge away wouldn't stop it for long. My cure was to drill holes in the drum, 3) 1/4" holes across the swept face spaced around the drum. Bingo, never another problem out of the rears. The holes let the brake dust out. Never heard of anyone doing this, but later found some old race vehicles with drilled drums also.
With an upgraded front brake I can slide my XS650 rear tire by downshifting If I'm not careful. On the street where pavement conditions are so variable I feel best not using any rear when I have to stop fast, it creates too much chance of a skid, that requires relaxing front brakes to control, lengthening the stop distance.
 
Yes, the rear brakes would last forever, because they were doing no braking at all. Adding rear discs to that same vehicle is no good unless you add an electronic distribution valve to lessen and control the hydraulic pressure to the rear.

So it sounds like we've determined that strong rear brakes are good if we have more electric hardware to make them not as strong. I feel like we're right back where we started.
 
Gary, that was a clever solution you did on the Prius rear drums. But, the main problem was that they were drum brakes. Drum brakes, for lack of a better word, are crap. Thankfully drum brakes have mostly disappeared, at least on cars and trucks, never to be seen again.
Yes, I think many bikers have a fear of using the rear brake. Is that because its a drum brake, which is either full on or full off;
meaning its difficult to modulate smoothly? With my rear disc, using organic pads, its easy to modulate the brake force. My right foot knows the difference between 1/4 braking, or 1/2 braking or 3/4 braking. I never use 100% rear braking.
In normal braking situations, as an example, I might have the front brake at 1/2 and the rear at 1/4. If I need the front at 3/4, then I might have the rear at 1/2. Its all just practice to be able to control the front and rear in a coordinated fashion.
 
again a pissin match over a simple fun vote thread.. so my F150 drums were checked before winter. After 7 mos of , slush, rain, ice, snow, de-icer chem, gravel, offroad dirt, rocks, and a dead possum my rear brakes work exactly as they should. No leaks even. XS drums look great too ! -RT :thumbsup:
 
So it sounds like we've determined that strong rear brakes are good if we have more electric hardware to make them not as strong. I feel like we're right back where we started.
With my 2005 Camry, rear braking works very well. Yes, strong rear brakes are good, as long as you have electronics controlling the hydraulic pressure. If the front brakes are applied lets say at 80% braking ability, then the cars computer has an algorithm that calculates the rear should be applied at 30%. Those are just example numbers, I don't know what the cars computer software is actually programmed for. Its all about proportioning the rear hydraulic pressure in relation to the front hydraulic pressure. All I know is that Toyota did an excellent job in the brake system design.

With my XS650, my brain does the work instead of the cars computer. My brain tells my right foot to press down to achieve lets say 30% braking, while my brain tells my right hand to squeeze to get 60 or 70% braking. Just takes practice.
 
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again a pissin match over a simple fun vote thread.. so my F150 drums were checked before winter. After 7 mos of , slush, rain, ice, snow, de-icer chem, gravel, offroad dirt, rocks, and a dead possum my rear brakes work exactly as they should. No leaks even. XS drums look great too ! -RT :thumbsup:
I don't know what a pissin match is.
What we have here is called dialogue. The internet is very good for dialogue. Free speech is our earned right as compared to other countries where people are put in prison if they speak against the establishment. I welcome your comments, and hope you enjoy your Ford truck. I had one once and liked it a lot.
 
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