Starter advice

GLJ said:
It's not a final test.
Was your starter grinding on engagement or after it started cranking?
Click to expand...
With the spark plugs in, I just got grinding noise when I pressed the starter button. No cranking at all. I'm hoping to have fixed it. Haven't been able to try it today as I've been doing other stuff. I'll get back to it tomorrow.
 
The last two post confuse me. What are we talking about regarding "cranking" ?

Anyway I'm kinda out of ideas. I'm not sure how valuable the tests are I did? Maybe I'm chasing my tail now?

If the clip shows significant drag, the starter reduction gear shock absorbers look OK. What's else?

Unfortunately I haven't been able to get the bike to fire with the new 277° crank. Which kinda worries me I did something wrong. Maybe this could affect the starter?
 
How well it starts also affects the the starter drive. If 1 cylinder pops off but the engine doesn't start the drive can kick out because of the crank speeding up and then try to re-engage. Then you can get a lot bad sounds.
What is happening when you try to start the engine?
 
Also you need to make sure you have a good and fully charged battery. A weak battery will cause starting problems. One of my XS2s was not starting well this spring. Seemed to crank ok, try to start but not quite make it. Starter would disengage then go crashing back in. New battery and it starts fine again. It has a 750 kit in it.
 
GLJ said:
How well it starts also affects the the starter drive. If 1 cylinder pops off but the engine doesn't start the drive can kick out
Click to expand...
This.
I've had many a barn find with a "bad" skipping grinding starter. Once the wake up drill was done and the motor was ready to start as soon it cranked over, the "bad" starter was just fine. Not always, but often enough to be noticeable.
 
yeah that could definitely be the case. that's what I mean with ''chasing my tail'', maybe its fine. It just sounds horrible the way it is. mechanically I would just expect that the starter will keep driving the crank, even with the kill switch on. Not this erratic movement.

Battery is new and 100% full, no issues there.

Regarding the bike, I feel another topic coming up:whistle:. Im not sure if something is wrong or its just the first startup that is hard. I've seen sparks, it has fuel, i'm just not 100% sure the timing is correct. The instructions with the 277 VAPE are very poorly translated.
 
Bjorn said:
yeah that could definitely be the case. that's what I mean with ''chasing my tail'', maybe its fine. It just sounds horrible the way it is. mechanically I would just expect that the starter will keep driving the crank, even with the kill switch on. Not this erratic movement.

Battery is new and 100% full, no issues there.

Regarding the bike, I feel another topic coming up:whistle:. Im not sure if something is wrong or its just the first startup that is hard. I've seen sparks, it has fuel, i'm just not 100% sure the timing is correct. The instructions with the 277 VAPE are very poorly translated.
Click to expand...
I'm by no means an XS650 expert like some of the members here. But one thing I have learned recently is that on these bikes for the electric starter to work well, the engine has to start easily. I last owned an XS650 in 1976/77 and the starter wasn't so wonderful when the bike was new. For sure, nearly 50 years later it hasn't improved any. Good luck sorting out your starter issues.
 
Its been a long time said:
With the spark plugs in, I just got grinding noise when I pressed the starter button. No cranking at all. I'm hoping to have fixed it. Haven't been able to try it today as I've been doing other stuff. I'll get back to it tomorrow.
Click to expand...
OK. I can confirm that the starter grinding noise fix looks to have been successful. What I now get is the motor cranking but the starter is kicked out when the motor fires up. This is a different sound than I had before I replaced the drag spring with increased tension, I'm thinking it's normal.

At the moment I can't keep the engine running, it cuts out. I guess when the engine runs properly, the safety relay will take the power off the starter motor due to voltage on the yellow wire. So kicking out the starter gear isn't then an issue.
 
Last edited:
Interesting, i just remeasured the drag force on the clip after trying to pinch it more:

I went from 2900 grams yesterday (6,3 lbs) to
1900 grams today... (4,2lbs)

Wtf

IMG_20240617_205210032.jpg



IMG_20240617_205114947.jpg



Btw this video from a virago is interesting!!!
Apparently the originally have the same weird construction like the XS. However there is an upgrade shown in this video where they use an different helical gear (different angle ?) and this allows to not use the compression/return spring at all

 
GLJ said:
Also you need to make sure you have a good and fully charged battery. A weak battery will cause starting problems. One of my XS2s was not starting well this spring. Seemed to crank ok, try to start but not quite make it. Starter would disengage then go crashing back in. New battery and it starts fine again. It has a 750 kit in it.
Click to expand...
This is something to point out to many reading this thread. If the starter is not spinning fast enough, you get the ball rattling sound and bike often does not start. It can also happen in the cold when the starter is working harder, it really needs a good fully charged battery, especially if the starter is not working to its fullest potential cause of dirty brush contact or just aged. I get the same thing on my XJ as I do with the XS if battery weak and/or cold.
 
Its been a long time said:
To be 100% clear - you pinched the spring more today but the drag became less?
Click to expand...
That is correct. Blew my mind. I even tested with the clip in different orientations to make sure.

I'll see if I can find a oem clip. But apart from ebay (not the most ideal place for a dutchie) i could not find a lot...

Ik actually surprised with the community and popularity of the XS, there is no good fix for this. Like the helical gear in the video.

You guys seen that? Just skip trough the video to the good bits
 
I understand the importance of a decent battery!

However I got a rebuild starter, and am running a 801 antigravity li ion battery fully charged. Only thing I don't have is the safety relay. Red about it's function and like the idea. However I got a aftermarket alternator/ignition/reg rec. So it's just an aftermarket relay
 
Bjorn said:
Ik actually surprised with the community and popularity of the XS, there is no good fix for this. Like the helical gear in the video.
Click to expand...
There is actually a guy (Steffi Graf) from the German forum who made different pitch helical gears.
He used to have small batches of them produced if there was enough interest.

0322.jpg


0323.jpg


https://www.xs650.de/forum/viewtopic.php?t=25297&start=30

He also had high ratio primary gears produced (and said he might do another batch, but I haven't seen an announcement yet).

Another of his builds is a hydraulically assisted cam chain tensioner.
 
Since its holiday time, i might as well update some of my topic hehe. Who knows somebody might be looking into these in the future...

In the end I went to Jerry XS (former heiden tuning) for advice and he did the following mods to improve the starter, i got no pictures Bex the mods have been working great! So the engine was never opened up afterwards.

- increased the chamfer of the Bendix gear for easier engagement.
- placed a 4 brush holder for the starter instead of the original 2.

Since then I can report that the starter has been working great, no grinding since.
 

Similar threads

Biggles19
XS650 STARTER
Replies
2
Views
266
JJames
JJames
Britman
Old Topic-Dragging Starter Fix
Replies
11
Views
936
toglhot
T
Dannyh82
Worm gear / pushrod travel 1.4mm?
Replies
2
Views
176
bosco659
bosco659
suntrakr
Starter gear fix keeping bike off the road (Round 2!)
Replies
8
Views
984
member39729
M
H
kickstart technique nerd question - disengagement / freewheel
Replies
1
Views
453
jetmechmarty
jetmechmarty
Back
Top