Starter Gear Fix!

[Marlin72xs]

Okay, it's simple. I freaked out when the gear came off the shaft, so I took a walk and realized I had an extra lower case with the shaft and gear. So, unless the engine is upside down, when it falls off the shaft, it doesn't go anywhere. It drops about 1 or 2mm down and stays in the pocket. (thank goodness). I tried and tried to jiggle the crap out of it to get it back into the spline, but nada! It would actually somewhat engage with the spline, but thats all. So when the case was tilted approximately 30 degrees to the right or more, off vertical, some easy jiggling allowed the gear to just fall on to the gear and into place.
Here are some pics, (not videos), of the process:

So, after my amazing discovery, I leaned the bike to the right and propped it up with 2X4's @ about 30 degrees. Then laid on the floor and commenced gently pushing, jiggling and twisting , then suddenly.... Badda bing! It fell into place! It worked! Then I sang the Ken Miles "Happy" song!

"I'm H A P P Y, I'm H A P P Y!" This fix is for all the bumbling, all thumbs, wannabe, antique bike mechanics like me!

 

[SteveP]

Hi I'm currently rebuilding a gen 1 virago. The starter system is a well known problem on these bikes. There are fixes.
I've been considering trying the bendix clip clamp fix to my XS as well.
Not sure if it will work. I need to do some investigating.
I've attached an interesting video.

 

[Its been a long time]

That's a really interesting way to increase the tension on the clip. Thanks.

 

[SteveP]

I've got an old stock XS clip waiting to be fitted. And a virago clip that came in a box of spares. I'm going to measure them and see if the clip will work for both. I suppose the next thing to check will be clearances in the XS engine.
Can't do anything at the moment though as I'm laid up with a fractured ankle .

 

[Its been a long time]

I've got an old stock XS clip waiting to be fitted. And a virago clip that came in a box of spares. I'm going to measure them and see if the clip will work for both. I suppose the next thing to check will be clearances in the XS engine.
Can't do anything at the moment though as I'm laid up with a fractured ankle .

Different part number for each bike, XS and Virago. But they might be the same part?

 

[SteveP]

It seems as though yamaha didn't like reinventing parts. And used similar parts across different models, where they could. Maybe just giving it a different part number.
I think it will be best to physically measure the two parts

 

[Its been a long time]

It seems as though yamaha didn't like reinventing parts. And used similar parts across different models, where they could. Maybe just giving it a different part number.
I think it will be best to physically measure the two parts

Agreed. Yamaha are pretty good at reusing parts across different bikes. Makes perfect sense.

 

[gggGary]

AKA: parts bin engineering.
Yammy is also pretty good about keeping the part # consistent....

 

[SteveP]

I'll be out there with digital calipers ASAP

 

[onkelheri]

Hi XS Fellows ... maybe i have some intressting news:

i also bend or squeeze the Cliptail together to reach more tensions/friction. But with my concerns about "to break the molekule to much" and get some microcracks i do it around a 4,4mm shaft of an broken M4 Tap. I use a 3jaw chuck of the Lathe, (ok , this time the where some "markings" in the steel, next time i take some Cupper between the Jaws!) but more important for ALL of US : that the force grow from 3,5 to 4,5kg - so youres will get up from 7 to ~ 9lbs... i hope you'll try that too and wrote and answer of youre results.

greetz Heri

Just for you:"uups, i did it again!" : fore shure with cupperprotection ... while whistling john taylors " cupperline"

 

[gggGary]

I've thought several times about making a spring with a full 360 degree "tail" instead of the 180 bend.
heat and reshape a valve spring? just thinking out loud.

 

[MaxPete]

I've thought several times about making a spring with a full 360 degree "tail" instead of the 180 bend.
heat and reshape a valve spring? just thinking out loud.

It might be tough to get the correct temper back into the spring material after you bend it into the hairclip shape.

Basically, that bend in the hairclip is designed to create a certain amount of friction when it is installed into the groove in that helical starter gear….not too much and not too little.

However, it is a basic law of mechanical design that friction is not your friend. When you need a lot, the friction will be too low and when you don’t want a lot, the friction will be too high and when you want just a certain amount of friction….you will not have it.

Sooooo, the XS650 starter gear-hairclip thingy is simply a poor design which is why no other bike used it.

Too bad - ‘cause we’re stuck with it.

 

[Its been a long time]

It might be tough to get the correct temper back into the spring material after you bend it into the hairclip shape.

Basically, that bend in the hairclip is designed to create a certain amount of friction when it is installed into the groove in that helical starter gear….not too much and not too little.

However, it is a basic law of mechanical design that friction is not your friend. When you need a lot, the friction will be too low and when you don’t want a lot, the friction will be too high and when you want just a certain amount of friction….you will not have it.

Sooooo, the XS650 starter gear-hairclip thingy is simply a poor design which is why no other bike used it.

Too bad - ‘cause we’re stuck with it.

I would bet that the drag clip wasn't in the first prototype design. I'm betting that they built the first motor with electric start, discovered that the Bendix didn't kick out reliably. So they scratched their heads and came up with the drag clip to fix it. Sounds plausible? We'll never know.

I'm not 100% convinced we're stuck with it. Did I dream it or was there a Swiss or German guy who made a Bendix assembly with the Bendix helix at a different angle? The different angle allowed the Bendix to throw out without needing a drag clip. I can't find it just now on the various XS650 web stores. I think it's out there somewhere? I also remember it wasn't a cheap part, low production volume etc..... But in a world without drag clips it's good to know there's another solution to the starter issues.

 

[onkelheri]

I've thought several times about making a spring with a full 360 degree "tail" instead of the 180 bend.
heat and reshape a valve spring? just thinking out loud.

I think about a "Bandbrake" ... there will be a better solution for the problemchaingang of Yamahas sakedrinking engineers

 

[onkelheri]

I would bet that the drag clip wasn't in the first prototype design. I'm betting that they built the first motor with electric start, discovered that the Bendix didn't kick out reliably. So they scratched their heads and came up with the drag clip to fix it. Sounds plausible? We'll never know.

I'm not 100% convinced we're stuck with it. Did I dream it or was there a Swiss or German guy who made a Bendix assembly with the Bendix helix at a different angle? The different angle allowed the Bendix to throw out without needing a drag clip. I can't find it just now on the various XS650 web stores. I think it's out there somewhere? I also remember it wasn't a cheap part, low production volume etc..... But in a world without drag clips it's good to know there's another solution to the starter issues.

That ist not true , it still needs that clip! An some user complain abbout it, but often you never know what is true!

My chain of solution is a lot of work, starting with that clip, needlebearings as much as possible and end at swaping the sealing in the Starterbearingshield!

 

[arcticXS]

I've thought several times about making a spring with a full 360 degree "tail" instead of the 180 bend.
heat and reshape a valve spring? just thinking out loud.

That would be a 540 degree "bend", wouldn't it? And all else being equal (wire diameter and "bend radius), the clamping force of the clip would be less. At least as long as its "relaxed" dimensions are kept the same. If it is made more "closed" when "relaxed" it definitely could work.

 

[Its been a long time]

That ist not true , it still needs that clip! An some user complain abbout it, but often you never know what is true!

My chain of solution is a lot of work, starting with that clip, needlebearings as much as possible and end at swaping the sealing in the Starterbearingshield!

Thank you. You know the modified Bendix design? I think it was a Swiss guy designed it? I didn't find it this morning when I searched.

 

[onkelheri]

Thank you. You know the modified Bendix design? I think it was a Swiss guy designed it? I didn't find it this morning when I searched.

yes -but it is expencive and not really better.

i allready fixed a Bike with putting a 95% used Gear with my now 4,5kg clip and it starts really good even with a NOS acid lead Battery , what i tried out!

Its all about the best frictionless train still to the "Bendix clip" he need friction(!)... and a perfect ground connection direct to the Starter!

 

[bosco659]

I’m thinking if someone took the time to build a better mousetrap (in this case a hair clip) and sold it as an assembly, complete, installed on a gear with supporting test docs of amount of pull it has, I’m thinking they could sell a lot of them. I’ve messed with many and bent quite a few with varying results. My starter engages 99.5% of the time but sometimes has the annoying run on. Now I just live with it but would buy a better one if it came on the market.

 

[onkelheri]

watch my starterstuff... i'am really close to an perfect result! But how to get the set to Canada? And will you pay 750€ for the whole System? A roller Starter a Minuscable, the first rollerDoublegear & the roller"Bendix" includet the "strong" Clip... all costumize.