75XSFLORIDA
XS650 Addict
Hey buddy can you answer my question about the clip though?? Everybody’s talking about the gasket now LOL
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Thanks !!
If your clip is squeezed that tight, my best guess is it's an early skinny wire type. I don't think it's even possible to squeeze the later heavy wire clip that tight without breaking it. I would replace it and the #4 gear with the later updated ones.
75XSFLORIDA
XS650 Addict
I mean I don’t know if mine is squeezed that tight as I haven’t taken it out yet but this is the actual part number off the microfiche specific to my bike so I’m assuming it looks just like this.
Are you able to provide a new part number for the new clip?? Also will this new clip fit on the factory fourth gear or not
Are you able to provide a new part number for the new clip?? Also will this new clip fit on the factory fourth gear or not
fiveola
XS650 New Member
Thank you all for this tech tip! Fixed my "can of pennies" sounding E-starter. Now onto the other little idiosyncrasies of this ole girl.
75XSFLORIDA
XS650 Addict
Cases don’t have to be split for this do they??
fiveola
XS650 New Member
No, just the right side. Refer to page 1 of this post and I believe there are steps. You just got to take off a few parts on the right side to get to it. I tested it after the fix with plugs out and the starter sounds completely different and the starter gear is engaging correctly.
75XSFLORIDA
XS650 Addict
Did you replace the 4th gear AND the clip?? Where did you get clip from? Thanks
The gear comes with a new ( heavier than stock ) clip.
fiveola
XS650 New Member
I got this replacement from https://www.mikesxs.net/. I did exactly what was recommended from garyr (Thank you!) in the 1st page of this post. I pinched down the wire tab on the gear on a bench vice. I pinched it to the point it fit in the factory slot where the oem tab was configured. This site is a blessing!
75XSFLORIDA
XS650 Addict
OK so what did you replace then? It sounds like you just pinched the factory clip and didn’t replace anything. What actually did you replace?
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75XSFLORIDA
XS650 Addict
And as soon as you installed just a new clip and this new gear, there’s no grinding upon starting?? It eliminated every little bit of grinding?
75XSFLORIDA
XS650 Addict
Also was the other gear that THIS gear engages with chewed all up?
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The gear that is engaged by the starter gear is part of the crank assembly and is non replaceable. It will sometimes show some wear but it’s usually not a deal breaker, the starter gear usually takes most of the damage.
No that would be a false hope.
These starters are noisy by nature. They were added in 1971/72. For the new XS2 model. It’s a very clever adaption, but it runs through a series of gears and shafts and they are just noisy.Don’t expect it to sound like a starter on a newer design.
The best thing you can do is get the bike into a good state of tune so it starts quickly and easily, doesn't work the starter very hard or put much strain on it. Also, if it's below about 60°, I'll use the kicker for the first start of the day. On my '78, even after the clip "fix", the starter isn't perfect. But, the thing starts so readily, usually within a couple revolutions of the motor, that I'm not putting much stress on the starter. It's always been like this, not perfect but adequate.
Just finished my repair but I left the tang of the wishbone clip outside the groove like it shows in the update repair bulletin
Those starters are just a tad noisy but without the grinding and it kicking out it's alright
I just put the petcocks and choke on get suited up and by the time I get back to the bike to kick start it
I don't know if the bike starts better that way (fuel getting to where it needs to be ?) with the wait
Maybe mojo magic
75XSFLORIDA
XS650 Addict
I have a 75 and thats where mine is....BUT im still getting all the grinding noise...so the position really means nothing does it?? Even the new heavier clip AND the new position, the clip still has to be squeezed it with a vice correct to obtain proper tension??Around 1975, the drag clip was updated and the new one was made from heavier wire. It wouldn't fit in the original groove any more so it was positioned just to the right of it.
75XSFLORIDA
XS650 Addict
Is that the THICKER and UPDATED clip?? Do you know what year they started using that one? Do you agree there was no reason to even update the clip IF one still must squeeze the finger in a vice....Below I documented the fix for the slipping 4th starter gear. I want to add the original poster/author is below. All I did was test and post pictures to what he is writing about. I applied this fix years ago to a kick starter spring the same way with success.
The reason why the starter slips and spins out because the spring has lost it's tension or was never set properly. This is what I found.
The spring has to be at 6 pounds. I found when it gets to 4 pounds it slips. I tested this on 3 other bikes. They were all at 4 pounds that slipped, new aftermarket-used aftermarket OEM or otherwise. Just takes 2 pounds difference.
This is what happens to the gear when the spring is at 4 pounds pressure.
This is a fish scale I bought at Walmart for $15.00. I'll keep it and use it to adjust the steering head.
Here is the factory spring tension rate
I have gotten two of Mikes stater kits for 2 of my bikes and one worked fine and the other just spun. This is what I've found on the adjustment. You can only squeeze the spring in a vise. No matter how hard you squeeze you only achieve 6 pounds. So if you don't have a scale you will be in spec. Just don't over squeeze on the vise and disform the spring.
Here is what I've also found. On the left is Mikes spring. Notice the flat sides to fit the new gear. To the right is a OEM NOS spring, it's fatter-just not grinded flat. When I put a NOS spring on Mikes gear you only get 4 pounds. If you squeeze the spring you get 8 pounds so that is the best set up. *Note* if you put a OEM spring on a OEM gear you will only get 4 pounds, the spring has to be bent in a vise.
You really can't bend it on the bike and not take it apart this this.
OEM part #
Below is a post from the author with his fix I just documented and tested. This will fix the dreaded starter problem. You could probably just remove the slipping gear and squeeze the spring and you would be fine.
#Electric starter problems on the XS650 are very common, and almost always due
to a non-functioning #4 gear, the one that slides down the bendix helix and
engages the ring gear on the flywheel. Symptoms are a starter that does not
engage, a starter that just grinds ineffectually, or a starter that kicks out if the
engine does not start immediately. The usual remedy is to replace the gear
complete with it’s spring clip, but there is an easy way to fix erratic and non
functioning starters without changing the #4 gear, even if the gear is showing
signs of severe wear.
When people remove the offending gear it is often badly worn, and they
assume that is the reason the starter does not work. But exactly the converse is
true.
IT IS NOT A CASE OF THE STARTER NOT ENGAGING BECAUSE OF A
WORN #4 GEAR. THE #4 GEAR ONLY WEARS BECAUSE THE STARTER IS
NOT ENGAGING.
One will find in removing non-functioning #4 gears from an XS650 that there is
still lots of tooth left. Now the bendix on a car will continue to engage till the
teeth are completely snapped off, and even then will turn the engine jerkily.
One usually changes them to avoid damage to the ring gear on the flywheel,
rather than because they won't engage. It’s not the worn teeth on the #4 gear
that prevents engagement. The reason the starter does not engage is because
of the spring clip on the #4 gear losing it's tension. The manual calls for about
5 lbs tension required to rotate the clip in it’s groove on the gear. The tension
found on the new ones can be up at about 8 lbs. You will invariably find that
the tension required to move the clip on non-functioning starter gears will be
down to about 2 lbs or less. This can be measured using a fishing scale.
What happens is this.
Because the # 4 gear is light and does not have enough
inertia (resistance to being rotated from a state of rest), Yamaha designed in the
spring clip to increase the inertia. This restrains the gear from turning on the
bendix when the bendix shaft is initially rotated by the starter motor. So, as the
bendix rotates, the helix on the bendix shaft forces the gear down the shaft and
into engagement, because the gear will slide before it will turn. Once it gets to
the end of the bendix, by which time it is fully engaged with the flywheel ring
gear, it has no option but to turn, it has nowhere further to slide. When the
spring tension in the clip is too weak, there is not enough restraint, so instead
of the gear resisting turning, it just spins with the bendix shaft, does not move
down the shaft fully, and is not forced into engagement. It goes down just far
enough to grind off it's teeth against the flywheel ring gear.
All that is necessary to get a starter gear working, no matter how worn the teeth,
is to bend the clip so it gets back to a minimum of 5 lbs required to move the
clip.
All that is needed to do is drain the oil, remove the kickstart lever, brake lever,
foot rest, and disconnect the tach drive cable at the side cover. Then remove the
right hand side cover. The best way is then to remove the clutch basket and
dismount the #4gear from the bike. I haven’t yet tried to do this fix with the
clutch still mounted on the bike and the #4 gear in place, but this may well be
possible. I am pretty sure that on the newer units where the loop of the spring
clip bears against the floor of engine case the that the loop will be visible just
under the forward lower edge of the clutch assembly, and you will be able to
reach in and do the following without further disassembly. On the older units
with the clip with the skinny loop inside the recess in the crankcase, the clutch
will definitely have to be removed and the gear dismounted. In any case, either
way, just use a heavy pliers, like a linesman's pliers, or a Visegrip, to squeeze t
he loop of the clip closed so it bends a little and the clip then grips the gear
tighter. If you do remove the gear from the bike, lever the clip off the gear
using a screwdriver, squeeze the loop of the clip in a vise, and remount it on
the gear. Check the tension with a fishing scale, if it is less that 5 lbs squeeze
the loop a little more.
You can test it immediately, even before remounting the clutch. Pull the spark
leads so the oil-empty engine does not start, and hit the starter button. I bet your
starter will now work, no matter what the wear is on the #4 gear's teeth.
Farrell
75XSFLORIDA
XS650 Addict
And what about this clip?? It’s already squeezed from factoryBelow I documented the fix for the slipping 4th starter gear. I want to add the original poster/author is below. All I did was test and post pictures to what he is writing about. I applied this fix years ago to a kick starter spring the same way with success.
The reason why the starter slips and spins out because the spring has lost it's tension or was never set properly. This is what I found.
The spring has to be at 6 pounds. I found when it gets to 4 pounds it slips. I tested this on 3 other bikes. They were all at 4 pounds that slipped, new aftermarket-used aftermarket OEM or otherwise. Just takes 2 pounds difference.
This is what happens to the gear when the spring is at 4 pounds pressure.
This is a fish scale I bought at Walmart for $15.00. I'll keep it and use it to adjust the steering head.
Here is the factory spring tension rate
I have gotten two of Mikes stater kits for 2 of my bikes and one worked fine and the other just spun. This is what I've found on the adjustment. You can only squeeze the spring in a vise. No matter how hard you squeeze you only achieve 6 pounds. So if you don't have a scale you will be in spec. Just don't over squeeze on the vise and disform the spring.
Here is what I've also found. On the left is Mikes spring. Notice the flat sides to fit the new gear. To the right is a OEM NOS spring, it's fatter-just not grinded flat. When I put a NOS spring on Mikes gear you only get 4 pounds. If you squeeze the spring you get 8 pounds so that is the best set up. *Note* if you put a OEM spring on a OEM gear you will only get 4 pounds, the spring has to be bent in a vise.
You really can't bend it on the bike and not take it apart this this.
OEM part #
Below is a post from the author with his fix I just documented and tested. This will fix the dreaded starter problem. You could probably just remove the slipping gear and squeeze the spring and you would be fine.
#Electric starter problems on the XS650 are very common, and almost always due
to a non-functioning #4 gear, the one that slides down the bendix helix and
engages the ring gear on the flywheel. Symptoms are a starter that does not
engage, a starter that just grinds ineffectually, or a starter that kicks out if the
engine does not start immediately. The usual remedy is to replace the gear
complete with it’s spring clip, but there is an easy way to fix erratic and non
functioning starters without changing the #4 gear, even if the gear is showing
signs of severe wear.
When people remove the offending gear it is often badly worn, and they
assume that is the reason the starter does not work. But exactly the converse is
true.
IT IS NOT A CASE OF THE STARTER NOT ENGAGING BECAUSE OF A
WORN #4 GEAR. THE #4 GEAR ONLY WEARS BECAUSE THE STARTER IS
NOT ENGAGING.
One will find in removing non-functioning #4 gears from an XS650 that there is
still lots of tooth left. Now the bendix on a car will continue to engage till the
teeth are completely snapped off, and even then will turn the engine jerkily.
One usually changes them to avoid damage to the ring gear on the flywheel,
rather than because they won't engage. It’s not the worn teeth on the #4 gear
that prevents engagement. The reason the starter does not engage is because
of the spring clip on the #4 gear losing it's tension. The manual calls for about
5 lbs tension required to rotate the clip in it’s groove on the gear. The tension
found on the new ones can be up at about 8 lbs. You will invariably find that
the tension required to move the clip on non-functioning starter gears will be
down to about 2 lbs or less. This can be measured using a fishing scale.
What happens is this.
Because the # 4 gear is light and does not have enough
inertia (resistance to being rotated from a state of rest), Yamaha designed in the
spring clip to increase the inertia. This restrains the gear from turning on the
bendix when the bendix shaft is initially rotated by the starter motor. So, as the
bendix rotates, the helix on the bendix shaft forces the gear down the shaft and
into engagement, because the gear will slide before it will turn. Once it gets to
the end of the bendix, by which time it is fully engaged with the flywheel ring
gear, it has no option but to turn, it has nowhere further to slide. When the
spring tension in the clip is too weak, there is not enough restraint, so instead
of the gear resisting turning, it just spins with the bendix shaft, does not move
down the shaft fully, and is not forced into engagement. It goes down just far
enough to grind off it's teeth against the flywheel ring gear.
All that is necessary to get a starter gear working, no matter how worn the teeth,
is to bend the clip so it gets back to a minimum of 5 lbs required to move the
clip.
All that is needed to do is drain the oil, remove the kickstart lever, brake lever,
foot rest, and disconnect the tach drive cable at the side cover. Then remove the
right hand side cover. The best way is then to remove the clutch basket and
dismount the #4gear from the bike. I haven’t yet tried to do this fix with the
clutch still mounted on the bike and the #4 gear in place, but this may well be
possible. I am pretty sure that on the newer units where the loop of the spring
clip bears against the floor of engine case the that the loop will be visible just
under the forward lower edge of the clutch assembly, and you will be able to
reach in and do the following without further disassembly. On the older units
with the clip with the skinny loop inside the recess in the crankcase, the clutch
will definitely have to be removed and the gear dismounted. In any case, either
way, just use a heavy pliers, like a linesman's pliers, or a Visegrip, to squeeze t
he loop of the clip closed so it bends a little and the clip then grips the gear
tighter. If you do remove the gear from the bike, lever the clip off the gear
using a screwdriver, squeeze the loop of the clip in a vise, and remount it on
the gear. Check the tension with a fishing scale, if it is less that 5 lbs squeeze
the loop a little more.
You can test it immediately, even before remounting the clutch. Pull the spark
leads so the oil-empty engine does not start, and hit the starter button. I bet your
starter will now work, no matter what the wear is on the #4 gear's teeth.
Farrell
