Starter Gear Fix!

Well no, it really doesn't. That new heavier wire clip will be found located in the new position regardless of whether it has been re-tensioned or not. It just plain won't fit in the original cast slot because the loop is too big.
Now if you squeeze the loop of the NEW heavier wire clip, wont it fit in the old position?? That’s where this is confusing. Even with the updated heavier clip it seems like people are still squeezing it so if it is squeezed, where should it go in the new position or the old position?
 
Here's the tech update on the starter gear and clip. The new heavier clip came out in '76 and was installed on all models after that .....

RriZnP9.jpg


If you have the old skinny wire clip, you could squeeze it tighter but it's not going to stay that way as long as a new heavier clip will. Bottom line - get the new heavy clip and matching gear if you have the old skinny clip. You place the new clip's loop outside the old clip's notch simply because it won't fit in there any more. It's a heavier and physically larger part.

Dude, you're making this simple update seem so difficult. So, to confuse you even more, here's a better way to squeeze the clip, lol .....

http://www.xs650.com/threads/alternative-slipping-starter-gear-spring-fix.59210/#post-683434
Ok got it man. Thanks bro
 
Usually squeezing the new clip still doesn't make it small enough to fit in that old slot. I've re-tensioned the original (heavy) clip on my '78 twice now (over the course of about 10 years) and it still doesn't fit in that old slot.
Got ya man. Thanks for all your help and the million questions! Lol. Only way ill learn.
 
Usually squeezing the new clip still doesn't make it small enough to fit in that old slot. I've re-tensioned the original (heavy) clip on my '78 twice now (over the course of about 10 years) and it still doesn't fit in that old slot.
mine neither
 
I purchased a digital fish scale - its only a cheapy - thats how I know that it doesnt matter which way I squeeze my clips I cant do better than about 3.5 - 4 lb.
I have no fuc.... idea how the others get up to 8 lb. If theres a knack, I dont have it.
 
I purchased a digital fish scale - its only a cheapy - thats how I know that it doesnt matter which way I squeeze my clips I cant do better than about 3.5 - 4 lb.
I have no fuc.... idea how the others get up to 8 lb. If theres a knack, I dont have it.
The tech section has a long write up on getting this down. I have a scale ordered. I will let you know. I have a couple to work on.
 
Is your clip an original or aftermarket? If aftermarket, maybe the quality is poor. All I've ever used and "fixed" were originals and they always tightened up. Even so, that still doesn't always make this starter perfect. It may still kick out or grind a little bit occasionally. I think it's just a poor design. It was added to the bike a couple years after production began so is kind of an afterthought. Best thing to do is get the bike tuned well enough so it starts quickly and easily. Then you don't have to crank the starter for very long.
 
Is your clip an original or aftermarket? If aftermarket, maybe the quality is poor. All I've ever used and "fixed" were originals and they always tightened up. Even so, that still doesn't always make this starter perfect. It may still kick out or grind a little bit occasionally. I think it's just a poor design. It was added to the bike a couple years after production began so is kind of an afterthought. Best thing to do is get the bike tuned well enough so it starts quickly and easily. Then you don't have to crank the starter for very long.
Trudat. Often find I don't have to do starter surgery once carbs and ignition are properly sorted. YSMV
 
Last edited:
Is your clip an original or aftermarket? If aftermarket, maybe the quality is poor. All I've ever used and "fixed" were originals and they always tightened up. Even so, that still doesn't always make this starter perfect. It may still kick out or grind a little bit occasionally. I think it's just a poor design. It was added to the bike a couple years after production began so is kind of an afterthought. Best thing to do is get the bike tuned well enough so it starts quickly and easily. Then you don't have to crank the starter for very long.
FWIW, I almost always kick my bike to life when it's cold. I may try the E-foot cold, but if it doesn't fire immediately, I kick it to life. My E-start works fine when the engine is warm. It fires almost instantly. If not, I kick it.
 
Yes, I pretty much do the same. If it's much below 60° out, I'll kick it for the first start of the day (cold start). After that, like yours, it fires quickly and easily with the electric leg.
 
I think part of the problem here is that the clip gets very hot if you crank the engine for a long time. I chucked one up in my lathe and spun it while holding the clip stationery and it got hot fast. Suspect the heat is causing some of the loss of tension.
 
Last edited:
Below I documented the fix for the slipping 4th starter gear. I want to add the original poster/author is below. All I did was test and post pictures to what he is writing about. I applied this fix years ago to a kick starter spring the same way with success.

The reason why the starter slips and spins out because the spring has lost it's tension or was never set properly. This is what I found.

The spring has to be at 6 pounds. I found when it gets to 4 pounds it slips. I tested this on 3 other bikes. They were all at 4 pounds that slipped, new aftermarket-used aftermarket OEM or otherwise. Just takes 2 pounds difference.
xsscale.jpg


This is what happens to the gear when the spring is at 4 pounds pressure.
xsgear.jpg


This is a fish scale I bought at Walmart for $15.00. I'll keep it and use it to adjust the steering head.
xsscalle.jpg


Here is the factory spring tension rate
xsinfo.jpg


I have gotten two of Mikes stater kits for 2 of my bikes and one worked fine and the other just spun. This is what I've found on the adjustment. You can only squeeze the spring in a vise. No matter how hard you squeeze you only achieve 6 pounds. So if you don't have a scale you will be in spec. Just don't over squeeze on the vise and disform the spring.
xsvise.jpg


Here is what I've also found. On the left is Mikes spring. Notice the flat sides to fit the new gear. To the right is a OEM NOS spring, it's fatter-just not grinded flat. When I put a NOS spring on Mikes gear you only get 4 pounds. If you squeeze the spring you get 8 pounds so that is the best set up. *Note* if you put a OEM spring on a OEM gear you will only get 4 pounds, the spring has to be bent in a vise.
xsclips.jpg


You really can't bend it on the bike and not take it apart this this.
xspliers.jpg


OEM part #
xsclip.jpg


Below is a post from the author with his fix I just documented and tested. This will fix the dreaded starter problem. You could probably just remove the slipping gear and squeeze the spring and you would be fine.


#Electric starter problems on the XS650 are very common, and almost always due

to a non-functioning #4 gear, the one that slides down the bendix helix and

engages the ring gear on the flywheel. Symptoms are a starter that does not

engage, a starter that just grinds ineffectually, or a starter that kicks out if the

engine does not start immediately. The usual remedy is to replace the gear

complete with it’s spring clip, but there is an easy way to fix erratic and non

functioning starters without changing the #4 gear, even if the gear is showing

signs of severe wear.


When people remove the offending gear it is often badly worn, and they

assume that is the reason the starter does not work. But exactly the converse is

true.

IT IS NOT A CASE OF THE STARTER NOT ENGAGING BECAUSE OF A

WORN #4 GEAR. THE #4 GEAR ONLY WEARS BECAUSE THE STARTER IS

NOT ENGAGING.

One will find in removing non-functioning #4 gears from an XS650 that there is

still lots of tooth left. Now the bendix on a car will continue to engage till the

teeth are completely snapped off, and even then will turn the engine jerkily.

One usually changes them to avoid damage to the ring gear on the flywheel,

rather than because they won't engage. It’s not the worn teeth on the #4 gear

that prevents engagement. The reason the starter does not engage is because

of the spring clip on the #4 gear losing it's tension. The manual calls for about

5 lbs tension required to rotate the clip in it’s groove on the gear. The tension

found on the new ones can be up at about 8 lbs. You will invariably find that

the tension required to move the clip on non-functioning starter gears will be

down to about 2 lbs or less. This can be measured using a fishing scale.

What happens is this.

Because the # 4 gear is light and does not have enough

inertia (resistance to being rotated from a state of rest), Yamaha designed in the

spring clip to increase the inertia. This restrains the gear from turning on the

bendix when the bendix shaft is initially rotated by the starter motor. So, as the

bendix rotates, the helix on the bendix shaft forces the gear down the shaft and

into engagement, because the gear will slide before it will turn. Once it gets to

the end of the bendix, by which time it is fully engaged with the flywheel ring

gear, it has no option but to turn, it has nowhere further to slide. When the

spring tension in the clip is too weak, there is not enough restraint, so instead

of the gear resisting turning, it just spins with the bendix shaft, does not move

down the shaft fully, and is not forced into engagement. It goes down just far

enough to grind off it's teeth against the flywheel ring gear.

All that is necessary to get a starter gear working, no matter how worn the teeth,

is to bend the clip so it gets back to a minimum of 5 lbs required to move the

clip.

All that is needed to do is drain the oil, remove the kickstart lever, brake lever,

foot rest, and disconnect the tach drive cable at the side cover. Then remove the

right hand side cover. The best way is then to remove the clutch basket and

dismount the #4gear from the bike. I haven’t yet tried to do this fix with the

clutch still mounted on the bike and the #4 gear in place, but this may well be

possible. I am pretty sure that on the newer units where the loop of the spring

clip bears against the floor of engine case the that the loop will be visible just

under the forward lower edge of the clutch assembly, and you will be able to

reach in and do the following without further disassembly. On the older units

with the clip with the skinny loop inside the recess in the crankcase, the clutch

will definitely have to be removed and the gear dismounted. In any case, either

way, just use a heavy pliers, like a linesman's pliers, or a Visegrip, to squeeze t

he loop of the clip closed so it bends a little and the clip then grips the gear

tighter. If you do remove the gear from the bike, lever the clip off the gear

using a screwdriver, squeeze the loop of the clip in a vise, and remount it on

the gear. Check the tension with a fishing scale, if it is less that 5 lbs squeeze

the loop a little more.

You can test it immediately, even before remounting the clutch. Pull the spark

leads so the oil-empty engine does not start, and hit the starter button. I bet your

starter will now work, no matter what the wear is on the #4 gear's teeth.

Farrell
Thanks for posting this. My 77 xs650's starter is defiantly in need of this attention. Heading out to the shop right now to get this job done.
 
IDK...as I've never tested the operation with the side cover off (no oil) and presumably the spark plugs out. In the video, the gear #4 engages and the crank immediately outruns it and kicks it back out (as it should when overrun). I've "repaired" and replaced a few springs and never had it fail to fix the problem if the wishbone spring had ~ 10lbs of tension on the gear
 
Last edited:
Below I documented the fix for the slipping 4th starter gear. I want to add the original poster/author is below. All I did was test and post pictures to what he is writing about. I applied this fix years ago to a kick starter spring the same way with success.

The reason why the starter slips and spins out because the spring has lost it's tension or was never set properly. This is what I found.

The spring has to be at 6 pounds. I found when it gets to 4 pounds it slips. I tested this on 3 other bikes. They were all at 4 pounds that slipped, new aftermarket-used aftermarket OEM or otherwise. Just takes 2 pounds difference.
xsscale.jpg


This is what happens to the gear when the spring is at 4 pounds pressure.
xsgear.jpg


This is a fish scale I bought at Walmart for $15.00. I'll keep it and use it to adjust the steering head.
xsscalle.jpg


Here is the factory spring tension rate
xsinfo.jpg


I have gotten two of Mikes stater kits for 2 of my bikes and one worked fine and the other just spun. This is what I've found on the adjustment. You can only squeeze the spring in a vise. No matter how hard you squeeze you only achieve 6 pounds. So if you don't have a scale you will be in spec. Just don't over squeeze on the vise and disform the spring.
xsvise.jpg


Here is what I've also found. On the left is Mikes spring. Notice the flat sides to fit the new gear. To the right is a OEM NOS spring, it's fatter-just not grinded flat. When I put a NOS spring on Mikes gear you only get 4 pounds. If you squeeze the spring you get 8 pounds so that is the best set up. *Note* if you put a OEM spring on a OEM gear you will only get 4 pounds, the spring has to be bent in a vise.
xsclips.jpg


You really can't bend it on the bike and not take it apart this this.
xspliers.jpg


OEM part #
xsclip.jpg


Below is a post from the author with his fix I just documented and tested. This will fix the dreaded starter problem. You could probably just remove the slipping gear and squeeze the spring and you would be fine.


#Electric starter problems on the XS650 are very common, and almost always due

to a non-functioning #4 gear, the one that slides down the bendix helix and

engages the ring gear on the flywheel. Symptoms are a starter that does not

engage, a starter that just grinds ineffectually, or a starter that kicks out if the

engine does not start immediately. The usual remedy is to replace the gear

complete with it’s spring clip, but there is an easy way to fix erratic and non

functioning starters without changing the #4 gear, even if the gear is showing

signs of severe wear.


When people remove the offending gear it is often badly worn, and they

assume that is the reason the starter does not work. But exactly the converse is

true.

IT IS NOT A CASE OF THE STARTER NOT ENGAGING BECAUSE OF A

WORN #4 GEAR. THE #4 GEAR ONLY WEARS BECAUSE THE STARTER IS

NOT ENGAGING.

One will find in removing non-functioning #4 gears from an XS650 that there is

still lots of tooth left. Now the bendix on a car will continue to engage till the

teeth are completely snapped off, and even then will turn the engine jerkily.

One usually changes them to avoid damage to the ring gear on the flywheel,

rather than because they won't engage. It’s not the worn teeth on the #4 gear

that prevents engagement. The reason the starter does not engage is because

of the spring clip on the #4 gear losing it's tension. The manual calls for about

5 lbs tension required to rotate the clip in it’s groove on the gear. The tension

found on the new ones can be up at about 8 lbs. You will invariably find that

the tension required to move the clip on non-functioning starter gears will be

down to about 2 lbs or less. This can be measured using a fishing scale.

What happens is this.

Because the # 4 gear is light and does not have enough

inertia (resistance to being rotated from a state of rest), Yamaha designed in the

spring clip to increase the inertia. This restrains the gear from turning on the

bendix when the bendix shaft is initially rotated by the starter motor. So, as the

bendix rotates, the helix on the bendix shaft forces the gear down the shaft and

into engagement, because the gear will slide before it will turn. Once it gets to

the end of the bendix, by which time it is fully engaged with the flywheel ring

gear, it has no option but to turn, it has nowhere further to slide. When the

spring tension in the clip is too weak, there is not enough restraint, so instead

of the gear resisting turning, it just spins with the bendix shaft, does not move

down the shaft fully, and is not forced into engagement. It goes down just far

enough to grind off it's teeth against the flywheel ring gear.

All that is necessary to get a starter gear working, no matter how worn the teeth,

is to bend the clip so it gets back to a minimum of 5 lbs required to move the

clip.

All that is needed to do is drain the oil, remove the kickstart lever, brake lever,

foot rest, and disconnect the tach drive cable at the side cover. Then remove the

right hand side cover. The best way is then to remove the clutch basket and

dismount the #4gear from the bike. I haven’t yet tried to do this fix with the

clutch still mounted on the bike and the #4 gear in place, but this may well be

possible. I am pretty sure that on the newer units where the loop of the spring

clip bears against the floor of engine case the that the loop will be visible just

under the forward lower edge of the clutch assembly, and you will be able to

reach in and do the following without further disassembly. On the older units

with the clip with the skinny loop inside the recess in the crankcase, the clutch

will definitely have to be removed and the gear dismounted. In any case, either

way, just use a heavy pliers, like a linesman's pliers, or a Visegrip, to squeeze t

he loop of the clip closed so it bends a little and the clip then grips the gear

tighter. If you do remove the gear from the bike, lever the clip off the gear

using a screwdriver, squeeze the loop of the clip in a vise, and remount it on

the gear. Check the tension with a fishing scale, if it is less that 5 lbs squeeze

the loop a little more.

You can test it immediately, even before remounting the clutch. Pull the spark

leads so the oil-empty engine does not start, and hit the starter button. I bet your

starter will now work, no matter what the wear is on the #4 gear's teeth.

Farrell
what would happen if that spring did not slip at all? I am curious as mine is jammed totally because I pinched it just a little too much. Brand new spring too. Arrrrrr! I assume it has to slip at some point but does it have to at 6 lbs max? Is that what the starter could tolerate without blowing teeth apart? I know I know a lot of questions but I’m confident the answers are here with all you XS experts. While I am here there is another related issue. When I install and torque down the gear cover the splined shaft and its attached gears tighten up. Not so much that I cannot spin them but they do not spin with the flick of finger. I have to use two fingers, but it seems to me that shaft should be a little more free spinning nit stiff. It does not take too much torquing of the covers bolts either to tighten it all up . The only thing I could think of is the cover is caved in a little where that short shaft spacer and wavy spring washer fits. Thank you for any input you can provide.
 
Below I documented the fix for the slipping 4th starter gear. I want to add the original poster/author is below. All I did was test and post pictures to what he is writing about. I applied this fix years ago to a kick starter spring the same way with success.

The reason why the starter slips and spins out because the spring has lost it's tension or was never set properly. This is what I found.

The spring has to be at 6 pounds. I found when it gets to 4 pounds it slips. I tested this on 3 other bikes. They were all at 4 pounds that slipped, new aftermarket-used aftermarket OEM or otherwise. Just takes 2 pounds difference.
xsscale.jpg


This is what happens to the gear when the spring is at 4 pounds pressure.
xsgear.jpg


This is a fish scale I bought at Walmart for $15.00. I'll keep it and use it to adjust the steering head.
xsscalle.jpg


Here is the factory spring tension rate
xsinfo.jpg


I have gotten two of Mikes stater kits for 2 of my bikes and one worked fine and the other just spun. This is what I've found on the adjustment. You can only squeeze the spring in a vise. No matter how hard you squeeze you only achieve 6 pounds. So if you don't have a scale you will be in spec. Just don't over squeeze on the vise and disform the spring.
xsvise.jpg


Here is what I've also found. On the left is Mikes spring. Notice the flat sides to fit the new gear. To the right is a OEM NOS spring, it's fatter-just not grinded flat. When I put a NOS spring on Mikes gear you only get 4 pounds. If you squeeze the spring you get 8 pounds so that is the best set up. *Note* if you put a OEM spring on a OEM gear you will only get 4 pounds, the spring has to be bent in a vise.
xsclips.jpg


You really can't bend it on the bike and not take it apart this this.
xspliers.jpg


OEM part #
xsclip.jpg


Below is a post from the author with his fix I just documented and tested. This will fix the dreaded starter problem. You could probably just remove the slipping gear and squeeze the spring and you would be fine.


#Electric starter problems on the XS650 are very common, and almost always due

to a non-functioning #4 gear, the one that slides down the bendix helix and

engages the ring gear on the flywheel. Symptoms are a starter that does not

engage, a starter that just grinds ineffectually, or a starter that kicks out if the

engine does not start immediately. The usual remedy is to replace the gear

complete with it’s spring clip, but there is an easy way to fix erratic and non

functioning starters without changing the #4 gear, even if the gear is showing

signs of severe wear.


When people remove the offending gear it is often badly worn, and they

assume that is the reason the starter does not work. But exactly the converse is

true.

IT IS NOT A CASE OF THE STARTER NOT ENGAGING BECAUSE OF A

WORN #4 GEAR. THE #4 GEAR ONLY WEARS BECAUSE THE STARTER IS

NOT ENGAGING.

One will find in removing non-functioning #4 gears from an XS650 that there is

still lots of tooth left. Now the bendix on a car will continue to engage till the

teeth are completely snapped off, and even then will turn the engine jerkily.

One usually changes them to avoid damage to the ring gear on the flywheel,

rather than because they won't engage. It’s not the worn teeth on the #4 gear

that prevents engagement. The reason the starter does not engage is because

of the spring clip on the #4 gear losing it's tension. The manual calls for about

5 lbs tension required to rotate the clip in it’s groove on the gear. The tension

found on the new ones can be up at about 8 lbs. You will invariably find that

the tension required to move the clip on non-functioning starter gears will be

down to about 2 lbs or less. This can be measured using a fishing scale.

What happens is this.

Because the # 4 gear is light and does not have enough

inertia (resistance to being rotated from a state of rest), Yamaha designed in the

spring clip to increase the inertia. This restrains the gear from turning on the

bendix when the bendix shaft is initially rotated by the starter motor. So, as the

bendix rotates, the helix on the bendix shaft forces the gear down the shaft and

into engagement, because the gear will slide before it will turn. Once it gets to

the end of the bendix, by which time it is fully engaged with the flywheel ring

gear, it has no option but to turn, it has nowhere further to slide. When the

spring tension in the clip is too weak, there is not enough restraint, so instead

of the gear resisting turning, it just spins with the bendix shaft, does not move

down the shaft fully, and is not forced into engagement. It goes down just far

enough to grind off it's teeth against the flywheel ring gear.

All that is necessary to get a starter gear working, no matter how worn the teeth,

is to bend the clip so it gets back to a minimum of 5 lbs required to move the

clip.

All that is needed to do is drain the oil, remove the kickstart lever, brake lever,

foot rest, and disconnect the tach drive cable at the side cover. Then remove the

right hand side cover. The best way is then to remove the clutch basket and

dismount the #4gear from the bike. I haven’t yet tried to do this fix with the

clutch still mounted on the bike and the #4 gear in place, but this may well be

possible. I am pretty sure that on the newer units where the loop of the spring

clip bears against the floor of engine case the that the loop will be visible just

under the forward lower edge of the clutch assembly, and you will be able to

reach in and do the following without further disassembly. On the older units

with the clip with the skinny loop inside the recess in the crankcase, the clutch

will definitely have to be removed and the gear dismounted. In any case, either

way, just use a heavy pliers, like a linesman's pliers, or a Visegrip, to squeeze t

he loop of the clip closed so it bends a little and the clip then grips the gear

tighter. If you do remove the gear from the bike, lever the clip off the gear

using a screwdriver, squeeze the loop of the clip in a vise, and remount it on

the gear. Check the tension with a fishing scale, if it is less that 5 lbs squeeze

the loop a little more.

You can test it immediately, even before remounting the clutch. Pull the spark

leads so the oil-empty engine does not start, and hit the starter button. I bet your

starter will now work, no matter what the wear is on the #4 gear's teeth.

Farrell
Hey I’m liking this information because I noticed mine a little noisy on start up, sort of a overrun. I’ve got the casing off at the moment and noticed that the U is braced against the bottom of engine. Inspecting further I see what looks like a place to locate that U to the left looking in to that area and this is what I thought my problem was and it’s on my list to put it in there as I “assumed” that was its proper position but now I’m not sure, it looks like the kind of clip locator that the kick start has. Pickled my head now this as now you’ve mentioned some “do” brace against the bottom of the motor 🤷‍♂️
 
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