Swapping from PMA to stock charging (part 2)

[D3viousd4n]

Hey again everyone,

This is a follow up to my previous thread about swapping my 1978 XS650 from a PMA charging system back to a stock system. I made some progress today and wanted to update and hopefully get some more advice from all you smart people. I might be a little long winded here, apologies in advance.

From where I left off I had wired the connector plugs between the stator and reg/rec unit. Today I removed the PMA and installed the rotor I got from @Jim. I made sure to grease the crankshaft and keep the woodruff key in place, and tightened on a new washer and nut. I was unable to find the proper mounting screws for the stator housing, which are 6x75mm. Instead my local hardware store had 6x70mm and 6x80mm. I bought a pair of each and found the 70mm too short and only able to catch a couple of threads. I went ahead and installed the stator using the 80mm screws. I did notice a gap between the left and right tabs of the engine and the stator housing that look like they want to be touching. (See image) The middle tab touches but the left and right ones do not. I also found that the rotor spun with a lot more resistance with the stator housing on. Let me know if any of this sounds problematic.

I also had some issue routing the stator wires through the plate by the front sprocket. (see image) is there a trick to this? I did notice a bolt towards the rear wheel that seems to hold the plate in place, but I’m not sure how I can access it. Do I need to take the sprocket and/or chain off?

I mounted the reg/rec upside down and underneath the battery box. @650Skull pointed out that I should not mount the unit to the battery box due to it not being grounded—my understanding of this was that it was assuming a stock battery box. The battery box on my bike is custom metal and bracketed to the frame with more metal, and so mounting here should not be an issue, correct?

I took a look at the harness and could use some help identifying where to attach the brown wire from the reg/rec. There looks to be a brown wire coming out of the ignition switch, connecting to a red wire and then connecting to the starter relay. My impression is that this is where I need to work, but I’m not sure exactly what to do.

Lastly, and what I’m most embarrassed to admit, is that this whole time I had assumed I was working with a points ignition system without actually having checked. Well, today I went ahead and took off the plates and found an electronic ignition—all in all what I should’ve expected considering the system that was already in place. Can I still use electronic ignition with a stock alternator and solid state reg/rec, or do I need to go about buying more parts?

My plan is that once the charging system is sorted, I’m going to do a cam chain adjustment, valve adjustment, and then set ignition timing.

Again, sorry for having so many questions and thank you to everyone for all your input on my previous thread, I really could not be doing this without all your helpful guidance. I took a lot of photos while working today, hoping they’re a useful reference.

 

[Jim]

I went ahead and installed the stator using the 80mm screws. I did notice a gap between the left and right tabs of the engine and the stator housing that look like they want to be touching. (See image) The middle tab touches but the left and right ones do not. I also found that the rotor spun with a lot more resistance with the stator housing on. Let me know if any of this sounds problematic.

Yep, a huge problem. There's only a .014" gap between the rotor and stator. That's just a tad more than a credit card. The drag you felt (and pic confirms) is the rotor rubbing on the stator. Pull the stator back off and have a look at the engine case. Towards the bottom is a small alignment pin. Now look on the stator, you'll see a slot for the pin. I suspect you didn't get it aligned properly.

 

[Jim]

Here's some shots of the alignment pin and slot.
Also just thought, maybe the screws are too long and bottoming out?

 

[Jim]

I also had some issue routing the stator wires through the plate by the front sprocket. (see image) is there a trick to this? I did notice a bolt towards the rear wheel that seems to hold the plate in place, but I’m not sure how I can access it. Do I need to take the sprocket and/or chain off?

There's a specific routing. Unfortunately I don't have pics of it. @5twins might have?

 

[D3viousd4n]

Here's some shots of the alignment pin and slot.
Also just thought, maybe the screws are too long and bottoming out?


View attachment 336547

View attachment 336548

Got it, I’ll give realigning a shot. If there’s still a gap I’ll seek out properly sized screws.

 

[Jim]

I mounted the reg/rec upside down and underneath the battery box. @650Skull pointed out that I should not mount the unit to the battery box due to it not being grounded—my understanding of this was that it was assuming a stock battery box. The battery box on my bike is custom metal and bracketed to the frame with more metal, and so mounting here should not be an issue, correct?

As long as the custom box is grounded. If not, just make a ground jumper wire. Attach it to a reg/rec mounting screw and the bikes frame.

 

[Jim]

Got it, I’ll give realigning a shot. If there’s still a gap I’ll seek out properly sized screws.

Once you have it aligned, use a mallet to gently tap the stator into place and see if the stator mount tabs bottom out against the stator. If (when) they do, put the screws in and see if they bottom out before they cinch up the stator. If they do, just cut 5mm of 'em (if you can't find the correct size).

 

[Jim]

I took a look at the harness and could use some help identifying where to attach the brown wire from the reg/rec. There looks to be a brown wire coming out of the ignition switch, connecting to a red wire and then connecting to the starter relay. My impression is that this is where I need to work, but I’m not sure exactly what to do.

The brown from the ignition switch goes back to the fuse box and goes across a 10A fuse, then comes out the box to feed most systems using power. Anywhere along the brown past the fuse will work.

 

[Jim]

Can I still use electronic ignition with a stock alternator and solid state reg/rec, or do I need to go about buying more parts?

Stock charging system and aftermarket ignition will work fine together... as long as the ignition unit is good, you don't need anything else.

 

[D3viousd4n]

The brown from the ignition switch goes back to the fuse box and goes across a 10A fuse, then comes out the box to feed most systems using power. Anywhere along the brown past the fuse will work.


View attachment 336550

Ok, this is helpful. I’m following you for the most part.

I notice 4 different wires originating at the ignition switch (red arrow.) One brown, one red, and two black/white. The two black/white are severed, while the red and the brown have splices that, if I’m following the diagram right, lead to the fuse box. Not really sure why the black/white wires are severed, or if they should be connected. These two wires confuse me because, unlike the other two connections, they both seem to originate at the ignition switch. Meanwhile the diagram shows that there should be three individual splices from the ignition leading to the fuse box. Perhaps I’m overthinking this aspect?

I’ll connect the brown wire from the reg/rec to the brown wire that leads out of the fuse box and back into the harness, sound right?

 

[650Skull]

Factory ignition switch. Red from battery through fuse to ignition switch runs power to blue, brown.......... and blue/red on non US ignition switch. .......US ignition switch has 3 wires......red in, blue and brown out

Brown out of ignition switch powers bike.

Blue out of ignition powers lights, tail and gauges.

Will need to test your switch for power out after it is turned on and key position. If you run your lights, rear brake and gauges, off the brown wire they will b on all the time as soon as the key is turned on

 

[Jim]

Sounds like you might not have the correct ignitions switch. Can we see some pics of it?

 

[Jim]

The brown from the ignition switch goes back to the fuse box and goes across a 10A fuse, then comes out the box to feed most systems using power. Anywhere along the brown past the fuse will work.

When I said "Anywhere along the brown past the fuse will work."...... I should have worded that better. Just past the fuse was what I meant, not anywhere past. The brown to the regulator needs to be "just" past the fuse and before any loads. In other words, it needs to see what the battery see's.... all loads need to be downstream of it.

 

[5twins]

The alt. wiring harness needs to be under the shift shaft and trapped behind the shift shaft guard (red arrows) .....

There is a clip for the harness attached to the case after it comes out of the shift shaft guard (blue arrow) but it often falls off, lol. After that, the harness is secured to the main frame backbone tube with a wire tie (green arrow). If your case clip is missing, you could fab something up to attach to the rear mount of the shift shaft guard .....

If you don't properly route and secure the harness, this can happen .....

The chain can cut into the wiring. This is from my '83, and it's what "killed" the charging system and caused it to be parked for about 12 years. I got a smokin' deal on it ($200) because of this P.O. stupidity, lol. I repaired the wires, routed them correctly, and it charges fine now. I did have to replace the reg/rec though. Apparently shorting the wires fried it, lol. No big deal though as I had a spare in my stash. I'm glad it didn't fry the rotor or the main alternator, that could have gotten expensive, lol.

 

[Its been a long time]

That is Boyer Bransden after market ignition. There is an igniter box on the bike somewhere. Follow the wires from the pick ups in the picture above. They go to the igniter box. On a standard bike there's limited space for it. I put mine ahead of the ignition coil in the space behind the steering tube. Opinion is the BB has a decent reputation on the XS650, needs a good battery and wiring/switches to work best.

 

[D3viousd4n]

Here's some shots of the alignment pin and slot.
Also just thought, maybe the screws are too long and bottoming out?


View attachment 336547

View attachment 336548

Unfortunately there’s no locating pin on my bike. I remember reading somewhere that they are sometimes removed when installing a PMA. Anyway, I can line up the housing to where the pin ought to be, but I can’t tap it on so that the tabs are flush. It also seems misaligned to the bolt holes this way.

I almost wonder if I’m just over-torquing the screws? It looks like only the brushes are contacting the rotor, I can’t visualize where the housing is/would be rubbing…

If I screw it on the the mounting screws are just snug, the rotor seems to rotate normally and I have maybe a 2-3mm gap between the tabs

 

[D3viousd4n]

Sounds like you might not have the correct ignitions switch. Can we see some pics of it?

That is Boyer Bransden after market ignition. There is an igniter box on the bike somewhere. Follow the wires from the pick ups in the picture above. They go to the igniter box. On a standard bike there's limited space for it. I put mine ahead of the ignition coil in the space behind the steering tube. Opinion is the BB has a decent reputation on the XS650, needs a good battery and wiring/switches to work best.

More photos of ignition.

Think I see what you’re talking about @Its been a long time little blue box underneath the gas tank.

 

[D3viousd4n]

That is Boyer Bransden after market ignition. There is an igniter box on the bike somewhere. Follow the wires from the pick ups in the picture above. They go to the igniter box. On a standard bike there's limited space for it. I put mine ahead of the ignition coil in the space behind the steering tube. Opinion is the BB has a decent reputation on the XS650, needs a good battery and wiring/switches to work best.

Any idea whether I should (re?)connect the black wires out of the switch? I’ve noticed no problems with the ignition switch, I’m assuming it’s a if it ain’t broke situation

 

[Jim]

Unfortunately there’s no locating pin on my bike. I remember reading somewhere that they are sometimes removed when installing a PMA. Anyway, I can line up the housing to where the pin ought to be, but I can’t tap it on so that the tabs are flush. It also seems misaligned to the bolt holes this way.

I almost wonder if I’m just over-torquing the screws? It looks like only the brushes are contacting the rotor, I can’t visualize where the housing is/would be rubbing…

If I screw it on the the mounting screws are just snug, the rotor seems to rotate normally and I have maybe a 2-3mm gap between the tabs

That's a head scratcher for sure. Do you have a rotor puller? I'd be curious to see how well the stator fits without the rotor.

 

[D3viousd4n]

That's a head scratcher for sure. Do you have a rotor puller? I'd be curious to see how well the stator fits without the rotor.

I do, I’ll give it a shot