Swingarm Bushings

[Scottie]

Hi Riders, my first post here. Old guy riding since 1960. My son bought me a 1980 XS650SG to give me a project while my fused ankle heals. Yep ... a repair of a 54 year old injury done on a scooter. I have been lurking for about 6 weeks and I want to say this is a great support group. I will contribute as warranted, but right now I need a little advice with the swingarm. Here's the bike



So, the bike is my first XS650. It didn't run when I got it, but it took me about 3 hours to get it running and another day to get it running well. The bike has a PAMCO and the E-Advancer and the pin coupling the advance rod to the camshaft had fallen out and was missing. I made a new pin, timed it and it fired right up. Then pulled the carbs and rebuilt them because the PO had said he rebuilt them...what I figured was the problem when I bought it, but indeed it wasn't. There was some kind of green granules in the bowls, so cleaning was a good idea. I am not able to walk, so I had a friend come over and ride it for me. I have straightened up the wiring and relocated the E-Advancer and have been cleaning the frame, etc. When I pulled the rear wheel, the swingarm has some movement and so I thought it'd be good to replace the bushings. I have read several threads on this and thought I'd share a tool I have and ask advice on my best course of action.

To remove the factory nylon bushings, I have an old tool that works perfect. It is a tapered-thread punch. I simply threaded it into the bushing, held the SA in the vice and tapped it out. Flipped it over and did the other bushing. Here are some pics.




Here's my situation: My pivot bolt is not cracked - I checked it with inspection dye. The pilot shaft was well torqued when I loosened it. The SA fit well to the frame, i.e. it didn't just fall to the ground when I pulled the pivot bolt. There is evidence of wear between the pivot hand the outer tube. The outer tube cleared by old bushings by about 0.002" on each side, so the pivot bolt should have pinched the frame so as to stop the outer tube from rotating. That would mean the outer tube would rotate in the bushings as designed. Still, there was some wear evident. Bushings were worn, outer tube was worn (shiny) where it rotated within the bushings, but also there was wear between the outer tube and the pilot shaft.

I think the way to go with this is to replace the pivot bolt with the solid one, the outer tube, the seals and the bushings and the seals (thrust covers). But that is over $100 at mikesex. My outer tube is probably good despite the wear, and my pivot bolt is also good despite its wear except it has the hollow threaded area issue. So, the question is, is mikesex the way to go? I am concerned the new bushings will not fit my outer tube unless I get a matching outer tube from Mikes and then the pivot bolt I have is hollow. Am I best advised to simply go for the whole kit from Mikes? Or is there an alternative? Scottie

 

[650mark]

welcome to you and your new bike. I've done 6 xs650's and they all needed new swingarm bushings. I went with the bronze units from mike's and never had an issue with any of them. just get the old plastic ones out and press in the new bronze ones. I have never replace a pivot bolt or sleeve even though some of them looked a little beat up. but they are still very useable after being cleaned up. replace the grease seals as well. I've put thousands of miles on my bikes with the old pivot bolts in them. my current xs650 has 16,000 miles on it's original bolt, no problems at all and absolutely no "evil handling" issues. but i'm a rather conservative rider.have fun with your rebuild

 

[Scottie]

Thanks Mark. That is good to know. Have read several posts complaining the bronze bushings didn't fit their outer tube and you might have to get the outer from Mikes to fit their bushings. Is this a rare thing, or pretty common?

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

...Old guy riding since 1960.

Welcome to the forum, Scottie. Nice to see vintage folk in here.

...I made a new pin, timed it and it fired right up.
Then pulled the carbs and rebuilt them
There was some kind of green granules in the bowls, so cleaning was a good idea.
I have straightened up the wiring...

Sounds like an old, experienced hand here. You know what you're doing, and gotten yourself into.
Those green granules are your introduction to the new world of gasohol.

... To remove the factory nylon bushings, I have an old tool that works perfect. It is a tapered-thread punch.

Now, THAT's a cool tool. Never seen one of those before.

... I think the way to go with this is to replace the pivot bolt with the solid one, the outer tube, the seals and the bushings and the seals (thrust covers).

Sounds like a good, solid plan.
But, it would pay to carefully measure all replacement parts. In this "new world order", it seems that businesses nowadays are shoving "quality control" into the laps of the customers. Buyer beware.

... ...that is over $100 at mikesex.
... is mikesex the way to go?

I'm not sure how to respond to that.
$100 may seem a lot in '60s parlance, but what is the value of Mike Sex in today's economy?

... Am I best advised to simply go for the whole kit from Mikes? Or is there an alternative? Scottie

An alternative would be to use genuine Yamaha OEM parts.
The senior members here prefer this site:

http://www.boats.net/parts/search/Yamaha/Motorcycle/1980/XS650SG/parts.html

Edit: After viewing that site, it appears that your suspension parts are no longer available.
So, MikesXS is probably your only route.

...Have read several posts complaining the bronze bushings didn't fit their outer tube and you might have to get the outer from Mikes to fit their bushings. Is this a rare thing, or pretty common?

I'm sure that a lot of folks have had no problems there, they post up here when a problem surfaces.
There have been issues with dimensional tolerances, and residual powder paint on/in the swingarm openings. But, again, it's best to pre-measure before assembly.

 

[5twins]

I had no problems with the ones I installed. My buddy did a couple sets on his 650s without issues as well. Obviously, there are some installs that don't work out. That could be the bushings but could just as easily be the "mechanic" doing the work. You've been reading through the forum a bit so I'm sure you've noticed the skill levels here vary. I'm pretty good with a hammer so had no problem driving the old ones out and driving the new ones in. I found it quite easy actually. Some make a real mess of them if doing it with a hammer. "Pressing" them in with a long length of all-thread, some nuts, and washers seems about the safest way.

 

[Scottie]

Thanks TooMany. Old hand is right! I don't remember where I got that tapered threaded punch, but it comes in handy every now and then. I fussed with these bushings for a while with a toggle bolt tool...couldn't get it to catch, same with 3 screws. Then I remembered this tool...threaded it into the bushings and they popped right out.
On the green granules, from gasahol huh? that is interesting. 10% alcohol = 10% less mileage...don't know what they are thinking.
I know the $100 is not outrageous to rebuild a swingarm...just can't help myself as we were raised that way. I am not trying to build a race machine here, but a good solid rider. I thought I had found a Yamaha bronze bushing set, but seller finally revealed they weren't. I have signed up for boats.net, they are a great resource I hadn't known about.
5Twins, thanks for your reply too, I have been reading both of your posts and it is nice to see you both share knowledge with everyone....with patience!
I have the all-thread to press them in and I will definitely measure before any install.

I think I might try the bushings and seals first to see how they fit my components and then order up the outer tube and pivot bolt if I need to.

You know, I got to thinking about my getting this motor going and the PO had a "professional shop" do some work. Of course, the bike didn't warrant that kind of expense so he sold it. Once I got the engine to fire, I checked the valve lash. The right exhaust had the lock nut laying in the cavity and the lash was 1/4". It had only been 2 months since he had the valves adjusted. The right intake was locked down, but had 0.15" lash. Good grief!

 

[650mark]

I've taken several swingarms to a local machine shop and had them press the bronze bushings in on a 10 ton press. took them 5 minutes, they charged me $10. well worth it.

 

[gggGary]

I like to check the frame to assembly clearance. Some times the frame opening is so wide that I feel excessive bending is necessary to grip the sleeve so the rotation occurs between the sleeve and bushing. In those cases I use a shim to take up slack instead of bending the frame which also forces the frame bores "crooked" This clearance varies frame to frame. Many don't need a shim but a few do. This is a separate clearance from the sleeve to bearing end clearance that sometimes is factory shimmed. Fair warning, I am the voice in the wilderness on this one. But I will guess that might be the reason some of the factory bolts have cracked. I have worked on a "couple" of these, haven't seen a cracked pivot bolt yet. If the pivot has been kept greased the stock bushings can still be just fine. But on a bike I will ride hard I'll put in the bronze bushings. Yes some aftermarket bushings are not properly sized. I have run into some (not from Mikes sex) :grin:

 

[aldo5468]

Gasoline containing 10% ethanol = approx. 3% less mileage than "pure" gasoline, because ethanol burns and releases heat like all other hydrocarbon fuels, just 1/3 less per gallon than "pure" gasoline.

 

[XSLeo]

The stock bushings were some sort of fiber/plastic stuff. These wear out quickly if not properly maintained. These bushings are much softer than the steel of the pivot tube that rides in them. Seldom does the steel wear, the bushings polish the pivot tube more than wears it.
Some of the bushings are made a bit tight once installed. Some have honed them out to fit. The pivot tube should be a snug slip fit. In the several I have done I used Mike's XS bushings. They fit well.
I used a piece of 3/4 inch all thread rod, with washers and nuts. I used these to press the bushings in.
The pivot tube should extend past the bushings just a bit. The .002 sounds about right. As you tighten the pivot bolt you squeeze the frame so as to hold the pivot tube solid and the bushings pivot around the tube. Any wear on the pivot bolt is of no consequence. The only time it gets any wear is if it loosens enough so the pivot tube around the pivot bolt. This also lets the swing arm move sideways more than it should.
Once you install the new bushings install the swing arm in the bike. torque the pivot bolt to around 35-40 ftlb. Lift the swing arm up level, release it. It will probably drop. This means the pivot bolt has not locked the pivot tube enough. Increase the torque 10 ftlbs. Repeat the test. Add more torque until it holds where you leave it, once it holds this means the pivot tube is locked in place and the bushings are pivoting around the pivot shaft.
Leo

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

Here's some MikesXS swingarm bushing parts dimensions:

http://www.xs650.com/forum/showpost.php?p=363215&postcount=12

And an undersized sleeve in here:

http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=37177

 

[fredintoon]

Hi Scottie and welcome,
neat that you had a fancy tool to pull the plastic bushings. For those who don't have one another way is to assemble a hacksaw through the swingarm pivot and split each bushing into a C-section.
That plus a cut across the flange and the bushings will poke out with a screwdriver.
My take on the stock pivot system is that the designer was having a bad day.
My fix would be:-
Drill & tap the swingarm for a grease nipple.
Make a solid pivot the same OD and length as the stock bearing sleeve drilled 16mm x ~1" deep and drilled & tapped the bottom of that hole M16 x ~1" deep each end.
Grind off the leftside thrubolt stop block.
Assemble the solid pin & swingarm in the frame with the stock sealing washers using an M16 x 50 bolt each side.
Torqued up good with a dab of blue loctite and she ain't gonna turn.

 

[Scottie]

Wow! Thanks to you all for the replies and advice. It will all be taken into consideration. I'll try to address some now and others later.
650Mark, I actually have a large press right next door, but I'll probably do a dimensional stackup before putting it all together and if I need the press, I take the SA there. I have read gggGary's threads and I plan to check it before the install. No sense bending the frame more than necessary. When mine came out, it was not very loose, but the new bushings and seals will change all that. Same with my 0.002" protrusion beyond the bushing of the outer tube (the Bush). Have to see what I have when it all arrives. Leo's advice seems spot on. 2Many, thanks for the reference, I'll check that out. And Fred, i appreciate the welcome. I have thought about redesigning the pivot bolt to something that clamps on both side. That is a more secure, and rigid way to go. Front wheel axle should be that way IMO. But I think I'll try the stock pivot bolt and see what I get.

Aldo, I believe you are referring to specific heat of combustion, not power. While related, unless the engine is tuned for the alky mix (which they are not...only knock sensors on newer engines and nothing for the majority of cars on the road), the power - and hence fuel mileage - cannot be realized. We did testing at UOP (Universal Oil Products, desPlaines, IL) for several years. Real world testing we got 7% less horsepower, and 7% less fuel mileage best case. More often we observed 10 to 12 % less with the addition of methanol. On a more immediate test, I drove to Florida and back this Christmas. Filled up with 89 octane methanol gas and then switched to pure gas, 89 octane. I did this for 6 fillups, 3 of each. Ethanol gas got 16.5 mpg on average, straight gas go 18.5 or better. I'll stand by my number.

 

[5twins]

You'll want to provide a better and different way to lube your new bushings. The original set-up doesn't work so well for the bronze bushings because they are designed to receive their lube supply from the rear. The stock bushings get theirs from the side. There are two ways to get that grease delivered to the rear of the new bushings. One or the other will work but I like to combine them and use both. First, of course, is to add a new grease fitting to the center of the swingarm pivot area like so. I like to use a 45° angled fitting to ease access once the swingarm is installed .....

The second method is a small mod to the existing components that allow them to direct grease to the rear of the new bushings. If you examine your pivot tube, you'll find a couple holes at each end for grease to pass through into the sides of the original bushings (blue lines). What we need is to get grease delivered into the center portion of the arm so it will eventually, with enough grease gun pumping, get forced into the rears of the new bushings. To accomplish this, simply drill a couple additional holes around the center of the pivot tube (red arrows). Location isn't critical, just somewhere near the center .....

Even if you don't mod the pivot tube, do give the original fittings an occasional shot of grease to keep the pivot bolt from freezing up to the pivot tube.

 

[Scottie]

Thanks Twins. I have read your post on this before and I think it is a very reasonable mod to add a zero fitting to the bottom, center of the at will get grease between the SA itself and the pivot (outer) tube and will then feed grease to the bushing via the grooves in the bushing. Clever. Adding grease to the ends of the pivot shaft will still force grease from the pivot shaft to the pivot tube and via the 2 factory holes, between the pivot tube and the bushings just like the factory setup. No?
Still a good idea to make the mod including the new hoo in the pivot tube. I'll see how the new bushings fit to my tube before making a mod, but it is a great idea. Thanks.
I ordered the new bushings and seals from Mikes. Hope it fits or is too tight as I can hone it to size. Got some other little parts while at it. I sand blasted the SA yesterday, primed and painted it. Should all go back together next week. Then it is on to the brakes. Thank you everyone for the help. Scottie

 

[Gibson]

Hi Scottie, welcome. I just did that job to my 76 model. The Mikes bushings I pressed in with a large threaded rod, washers and nuts. Worked fine. Fit was very tight. It looks like your bike is in nice shape. Mine had the fiber bushings seized to the sleeve. I had about 1/4" of side to side movement of the swing arm at the axle. The sleeve was pivoting on the pivot bolt and destroyed it. It was necessary to saw a slot in the bushings and break them out.

 

[XSLeo]

It hasn't been mentioned but the swing arm bolt from the 81-84 Suzuki GS1100 is a good replacement. It has the threaded end straight, not reduced as the XS650 is.
Leo

 

[Gibson]

Thanks XSLeo. That's good to know. I got one from Mikes but have not yet installed it. It came as just raw un-plated steel part with a nylock nut. It will rust instantly I am sure. I have not yet figured out how to finish the part...

 

[5twins]

If your new bushings are like most of the bronze ones, they will have swirled grease grooves that run top to bottom, from the inside edge to the outer flange .....



This configuration is designed to have it's grease supply fed to it from the top or bottom of the bushing. Obviously, you're not going to be able to feed it into the top so that leaves the bottom or rear of the bushing as the grease access point. If you still have them laying around, examine one of the original plastic bushings. You will find one grease groove, a ring around the I.D. about half way up into the bushing. It doesn't reach or swirl out to the top or bottom of the bushing. It's designed to get it's grease from those holes in the pivot tube. They align with the groove when everything is assembled. Now, this could work for the new bushing, if the hole in the pivot tube did happen to fall right on one of the swirl grooves, but chances are, that's not going to happen. That's why we take steps to provide a better path for the grease.

 

[Scottie]

Thanks Gibson. Nice to know your new bushings fit. I didn't have much clearance between the SA and the frame as it was installed. So, I am hoping my new stuff will give me a stack up at least that tight. Otherwise, I'll be adding shims between the frame and the SA.

I anyone wonders what a "zero" fitting is...it is auto spell correction to zerk fitting. Gotta love these computers.

Leo, the GS1100 pivot bolt is an interesting option. I had one of those bikes...very fast, I outran my buddy on his GL1800 Goldwing. I do have a comment though on the XS pivot bolt. I hear it has a reduced cross section at the threaded end. I believe mine simply looks like it was threaded and I thought the issue was the threads extend into the hollow passageway for the grease? Am I missing something.

Another question: I hear the new pivot bolts come with a nylock nut (fiber lock nuts). Why isn't the positive locking washer being used? Blue thread lock would be more secure than a nylock, IMO. Or use DIN hardware.