Takes 20+ kicks to start, electric starter works 1/50 times

[divlukic]

1978 xs650 special, my main issue right now is that it takes an unreasonable number of kicks to start the bike. I’ll give it a few primers with the ignition off and the gas/choke on, but then I’m still kicking 10/20/30+ times before the bike turns on. Most of the time when I try the electric start, the starter motor doesn’t even move, there is no sound or activity going on at all. Sometimes after I’ve been riding for a while, if I turn the kill switch off and then back to on, the electric start turns it over quickly and immediately so I know it’s not the starter motor itself that’s the problem.

I just cleaned and rejected the carburetors so I know it’s not that, and had my stator replaced a few months ago so I don’t think that’s the issue either. My hunch is that it’s some kind of weak spark issue, as when I turn the ignition on, the green neutral light is often pretty dimly illuminated as compared to it’s brightness when the engine is on and running. This makes me think that there isn’t enough electrical power in the system when the engine is off, giving me a weak spark that both makes the kick start take many many attempts and also makes the electric start obsolete except for when I am done with a ride.

Does anyone have any experience with this kinda issue / have any advice on how to diagnose or fix this?

 

[Jan_P]

Maybe a weak old battery

 

[jetmechmarty]

Does anyone have any experience with this kinda issue / have any advice on how to diagnose or fix this?

You must have a good strong battery. Also, check the voltage at the coils as compared to voltage at the battery. Too much voltage drops and it’s not going to start. If you’re dropping voltage, you’ll need to clean all those connections in between the battery and the coils.
Also, ignition timing is important as are carburetor adjustments. I have a 650 that drops some voltage and it still starts on one kick. The electric leg only works when the engine is warm. If your bike won’t kick start, the e-start is hopeless.

 

[650Skull]

Might b time to do this as well

https://www.xs650.com/threads/continuity-testing-made-easy.49917/

When cleaning carbs people have to clean every orifice or they won't work.

Should b the same with electrical. Cleaning and checking a part of the loom or just one switch means another part is going to b problematic.

 

[Jim]

"Never underestimate the ignitions ability to fool you into blaming the carbs. "

My childhood mentor.

 

[ckahleer]

Here's some checks I do.
1 Check for too lean by removing a spark plug and spraying a shot of starter fluid in the plug hole. Quickly reinstall the plug and try to start.
2 Jumper battery from a running car and try to start.
3 Run a wire directly from the battery to the coils and try to start. Note: If the bike starts, you will need to disconnect the wire to to shut off engine.

 

[650Skull]

Here's some checks I do.
1 Check for too lean by removing a spark plug and spraying a shot of starter fluid in the plug hole. Quickly reinstall the plug and try to start.
2 Jumper battery from a running car and try to start.
3 Run a wire directly from the battery to the coils and try to start. Note: If the bike starts, you will need to disconnect the wire to to shut off engine.

No, never jumper from a running car. Using the car battery on its own is ok.

 

[arcticXS]

Low battery voltage, voltage drop (low voltage at coil primsry +), bad plugs, bad plug caps, bad HT leads, bad coils, bad breaker points, bad capacitors, incorrect ignition timing?
A healthy battery should read 12.6V when no load is applied. 12.0V is in fact a dead battery.....

 

[5twins]

You said you cleaned the carbs but you may have missed the choke jets. If they're plugged, the chokes won't work and the bike will be very difficult to start when cold. And due to their location (low in the bowl), any "gunk" floating around in there will get sucked into the jet when the choke is applied and plug it ......

The jet is pressed into place and can't be removed so blowing it clear with compressed air is about the only way to clean it. It can be difficult to seal the rubber tip on a blowgun into the hole because of the air passageway that enters from the side, so I use a needle tip extension. With this, you can stick the extension down into the passageway and place it right on top of the jet, getting a good, strong blast of air through it .....

Here's how to check the jet to see if it's clear .....

 

[Adamc]

Maybe a weak old battery

Or maybe an old battery that has gone weak……

 

[Yamahaman1966]

1978 xs650 special, my main issue right now is that it takes an unreasonable number of kicks to start the bike. I’ll give it a few primers with the ignition off and the gas/choke on, but then I’m still kicking 10/20/30+ times before the bike turns on. Most of the time when I try the electric start, the starter motor doesn’t even move, there is no sound or activity going on at all. Sometimes after I’ve been riding for a while, if I turn the kill switch off and then back to on, the electric start turns it over quickly and immediately so I know it’s not the starter motor itself that’s the problem.

I just cleaned and rejected the carburetors so I know it’s not that, and had my stator replaced a few months ago so I don’t think that’s the issue either. My hunch is that it’s some kind of weak spark issue, as when I turn the ignition on, the green neutral light is often pretty dimly illuminated as compared to it’s brightness when the engine is on and running. This makes me think that there isn’t enough electrical power in the system when the engine is off, giving me a weak spark that both makes the kick start take many many attempts and also makes the electric start obsolete except for when I am done with a ride.

Does anyone have any experience with this kinda issue / have any advice on how to diagnose or fix this?

defective battery possibly. Sounds like it charges while you're riding, hence the starter working only after being ridden some. You may have some type of short circuit draining the battery when the key is turned off. I would start by checking battery voltage before trying to start it cold. Another thing you could do would be to connect a known charged battery to the bike before trying to start it and see if it starts more quickly?

 

[onkelheri]

Low battery voltage, voltage drop (low voltage at coil primsry +), bad plugs, bad plug caps, bad HT leads, bad coils, bad breaker points, bad capacitors, incorrect ignition timing?
A healthy battery should read 12.6V when no load is applied. 12.0V is in fact a dead battery.....

Even a lausy wireing makes a Lausy electrik start ... some off you still believe that the needet 160Amps will flow over the Frame to a colourlayer to the Rockerhouse thrue the siliconsealstuff down to the Head , then down thrue the Headgasked and rusty stealbolds to Cylinder and the Foodgasket there to the Topgearboxhousing thrue the siliconseal in the lower Gearbox and last but not least in the 8mm Bold into the Starterrearplate ... f unny...

No friends - a 7mm Minuscable from the Battery - , direct to the Rearplate under the right upper 8mm Bold will help to solve this huge Problem!

Even the Relay like Maintanance: open it carefull and remove Erosion on the cupperconnectors! Clean every wirebold with a Brassbrush.

The starter likes fresh grease and even shiny cupper and good carbonconditions!

That all together make the different between a angry or a happy Day!

Heri

 

[Niels B]

1978 xs650 special, my main issue right now is that it takes an unreasonable number of kicks to start the bike. I’ll give it a few primers with the ignition off and the gas/choke on, but then I’m still kicking 10/20/30+ times before the bike turns on. Most of the time when I try the electric start, the starter motor doesn’t even move, there is no sound or activity going on at all. Sometimes after I’ve been riding for a while, if I turn the kill switch off and then back to on, the electric start turns it over quickly and immediately so I know it’s not the starter motor itself that’s the problem.

I just cleaned and rejected the carburetors so I know it’s not that, and had my stator replaced a few months ago so I don’t think that’s the issue either. My hunch is that it’s some kind of weak spark issue, as when I turn the ignition on, the green neutral light is often pretty dimly illuminated as compared to it’s brightness when the engine is on and running. This makes me think that there isn’t enough electrical power in the system when the engine is off, giving me a weak spark that both makes the kick start take many many attempts and also makes the electric start obsolete except for when I am done with a ride.

Does anyone have any experience with this kinda issue / have any advice on how to diagnose or fix this?

Except from the many kicks the starter issue seem a lot like what I just gone through, you may want to look through this tread as it addresses a lot of the issues - bad ground ( maybe needs a new harness) weak battery etc. also gives a lot of potential errors and way to check it.
https://www.xs650.com/threads/starting-another-‘78-xs650e-rebuild.64206/page-2#post-909018

 

[Wagner73]

No friends - a 7mm Minuscable from the Battery - , direct to the Rearplate under the right upper 8mm Bold will help to solve this huge Problem!

Heri

This seems like a very good idea...I may give it a go.

 

[Wagner73]

This seems like a very good idea...I may give it a go.

I did add a 6 awg ground wire directly to the one of the recommended bolts, and while I can't really detect a noticeable difference, I am certain that it helps at some level. At least belt & suspenders .

 

[onkelheri]

So did you do also the Rest of my recomendation? Clean the Cupper and fresh grease th the bearing? Did you bend the clip ? I still work to make a stronger one - up to 10lbs ore so - i will see what is the answer of the Springcompany where i ask for an offer !

In other Case : i'am prepared to forged them selve !

Heri

 

[Wagner73]

So did you do also the Rest of my recomendation? Clean the Cupper and fresh grease th the bearing? Did you bend the clip ? I still work to make a stronger one - up to 10lbs ore so - i will see what is the answer of the Springcompany where i ask for an offer !

In other Case : i'am prepared to forged them selve !

Heri

Not completely per se. The solenoid/relay is in good nick, and I will service the starter when the opportunity arises to pull the starter (read: necessity).