Total loss Li-ion project

barncat

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Wanna ditch your charging system entirely? No heavy rotor, no stator, no reg/rec, no capacitor. Faster motor spin up, more power, less heat, less complexity.

2nd generation testing going well so far with final version to follow. Without divulging all details, it's a 20V 16AH setup with a DC buck converter dialed in to 13V (or any similar output voltage). 3-D printed case, whole thing weighs about 3 1/2 lbs. Does need to be charged every 5-6 motor on hours of course.

Running LED headlight and tail light. .9A for ignition, 1.5 more for low beam plus 1 more for hi beam equals 3.4A max draw. I run on low beam and flash headlight as necessary in traffic.
 

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retiredgentleman

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It could be an alternative electrical system for people, that only drive short distances, such as in a city or town. Not everyone wants to remember to recharge the battery that often.
Things such as faster motor spin up,more power, less complexity.............................insignificant, subjective; mostly marketing hype.

So what would be the total cost for the electronics box, the Li-ion battery, a special Li-ion charger, and the LED headlight?
 

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I didn't specifically say anything about marketing. Hype is basically lying and nothing I said was untrue, so I resent the implication.

Very few people ride these bikes for more than a couple hours at a time. Furthermore, we are accustomed to charging all manner of devices these days.
 

retiredgentleman

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Well I guess I'm one of the few people, that ride my bike on long trips and ride from 8 am to 5 pm. Sometimes I'm gone for 3 to 5 days at a time.
How would you measure the faster motor spin up and the power increase? Just how much extra HP do you calculate would be available?
I sense you are selling a new product. Is this product being sold on E-bay?
 

Paul Sutton

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Nice looking unit! Is this a DIY project you decided to take on? I have a mate who does this sort of thing for electric bicycles, he gets all his cells from faulty computer batteries. He said that usually there is only 1 or 2 that are actually dead and the rest are good. Could be a good recycling project? What sort of efficiency do you get with Buck converters?

Thanks.
 

Newagerocker

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Wanna ditch your charging system entirely? No heavy rotor, no stator, no reg/rec, no capacitor. Faster motor spin up, more power, less heat, less complexity.

2nd generation testing going well so far with final version to follow. Without divulging all details, it's a 20V 16AH setup with a DC buck converter dialed in to 13V (or any similar output voltage). 3-D printed case, whole thing weighs about 3 1/2 lbs. Does need to be charged every 5-6 motor on hours of course.

Running LED headlight and tail light. .9A for ignition, 1.5 more for low beam plus 1 more for hi beam equals 3.4A max draw. I run on low beam and flash headlight as necessary in traffic.

Interesting, I recently had the voltage regulator conk out on my Honda ST1100 unknown to me at the time and apparently ran on battery for approximately 30 mi. I'd be interested to see this application on a XS650. How long does battery recharging take?
 

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Paul- yes these are tested recycled cells. Brand new would be an order of magnitude more $$. It's a "why not" sort of project with racing overtones. Racers omit charging for obvious hi performance reasons- this is a practical way to do it on the street. Buck converters run at a claimed 95% efficiency.

Newage- I'm confused... This unit is on one of my XS' s. Lithium charger is different than lead acid and takes a bit over two hours from minimum 14V back up to 20V.
 

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I should have mentioned at the top that this is suited to kick only not e-start. Running sans charging system will only appeal to those who share my performance oriented minimalist aesthetic.
 
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Newagerocker

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Newage- I'm confused... This unit is on one of my XS' s. Lithium charger is different than lead acid and takes a bit over two hours from minimum 14V back up to 20V.
I am aware that this is for XS650, although I hadn't realized you were already using the application. I just thought it curious and coincidental that I had just recently thought of recharging my lead acid battery and riding to a local repair shop to have the troublesome 28 amp alternator replaced with a 40 amp (a really big, expensive and time consuming job) before I realized it was just the VRR on my ST1100. Thus creating an essentially a total loss electrical system, much like the early Dnepr sidecar outfits and similar to your system but much less sophisticated.
 

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Yes... hatched the idea back there but that thread is more about ignition systems so I started this one to focus on the battery.

Equipped both my XS builds thus far with DIY PMAs- one going strong, one burned up 3 chinese stators. So the latter is getting the total loss treatment, makes perfect sense for my purposes. Mostly real world testing components for vibration resistance presently.
 
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retiredgentleman

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Yes... hatched the idea back there but that thread is more about ignition systems so I started this one to focus on the battery.

Equipped both my XS builds thus far with DIY PMAs- one going strong, one burned up 3 chinese stators. So the latter is getting the total loss treatment, makes perfect sense for my purposes. Mostly real world testing components for vibration resistance presently.
I'm interested in the total loss idea. Have you actually completed some real world driving experience, or is this just in the development
stage? Are you using an LED headlight during the testing? I'd like to know how many hours you can drive your bike, before the battery will no longer fire the ignition.

I'm also interested in the PMA that burned up 3 chinese stators. Will you share with us the name of the aftermarket seller, that sold you the 3 stators? Did they provide replacements at their cost, or did you incur additional costs? Any idea what caused the stators to burn up? Did all 3 fail in the same way......................i.e. were there burn marks in a similar location on the stator windings?
 

barncat

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RetiredG- this concept is not suitable for stock bikes or for those like yourself who ride 8 hours straight or are out touring. But suffice it to say, racers run total loss for good reason.

Of course I'm actually testing it. Note pic installed on bike in original post. With full charge and LED lights, 5 hours run time with some headroom, enough for any aggressive ride in the hills or jaunt around town.

Lights, chargers, converters, stators rotors etc all inexpensive eBay items. The stators tend to fry- not sure why.
 

retiredgentleman

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Yes indeed, a total loss is ideal for racing because in racing every once of weight that can be removed from the bike, gives an advantage to reach the winner circle.
The trend has been for everyone to reduce the electrical load on their bikes. That sounds like a good idea, and it is for the stock type alternator, which has an alternator that is controlled at the source. My bike only draws 113 watts or 8.77 amps, and therefore my alternator only generates 113 watts/8.77 amps.. My system is balanced and my alternator runs nice and cool..

Now, if you have a 200 watt PMA, which is not controlled at the source, (driving down the road at 4000 rpm) and your bike only consumes lets say 60 to 100 watts; that means your regulator has to try to dissipate between 140 and 100 watts of excess heat.
If the cheap chinese regulator can't do that, then the voltage will rise in the stator, and it may burn up. The system is not balanced.

Those 3 stators may not have burned up if you had used a PMA rated at 100 watts, not 200 watts. A 100 watt PMA would be much more balanced with a 60 to 100 watt draw from the loads on your bike.

The 5 hour run time is most impressive with the total loss system. Which LED headlight are you using, as I would like to know its wattage/current draw on low beam and its cost.
 

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RetiredG- this concept is not suitable for stock bikes or for those like yourself who ride 8 hours straight or are out touring. But suffice it to say, racers run total loss for good reason.

Of course I'm actually testing it. Note pic installed on bike in original post. With full charge and LED lights, 5 hours run time with some headroom, enough for any aggressive ride in the hills or jaunt around town.

Lights, chargers, converters, stators rotors etc all inexpensive eBay items. The stators tend to fry- not sure why.[/QUOTE

I don't know any xs650 and TT500 that would use a total loss system.. Shell even went away from them when I got into it , he sold ARDs, they went out of business and I switched to PVL, from there I went to a system from the UK and Germany which are as good and price is affordable. There is no advantage to total loss other then loosing a race to a bad battery. Much like being stuck on the side of the road..
Retired we when over this before but as far as reliability there is nothing better then the Powerdynamo for the street and I like the elctriexworld for racing. Both Powerdynamo in business for over 19 years I had one for over 10 as well as several frineds.. the Electrexworld have been in business for over 24 years...
 

retiredgentleman

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hooser............................I'm sure the electrical products you mention are high quality and long lasting.
However, I prefer my stock Hitachi alternator, which is 38 years old and still delivering a very reliable 14.2 volts.
For ignition, I find a Pamco with E-advancer to work amazingly well.
 

hooser

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Retired I agree if the stock system is working fine, to a point. I put a system on my old 73 that I sold to my brother in law and he notice the difference right away. The bike just ran better. We had to set the idle down. (this is normal with these) Hotter more reliable spark is what helps.

Also total loss for racing, bad idea. Many have come to me looking for something to replace their battery. Batteries with no charging system start to run down right away. Soon you have weak spark. Plus change in the temp effect the efficiency. How many batteries seen ok until the temp drops. I have replaced many a battery as soon as the temp. drops here in Iowa.

Retired you may have mentioned this before but why go with timing at the cam? When there is a more reliable (my opinion) and easier set up (fact) with the timing at the crank... I find top dead center and it is done... 5 min job, ok maybe 10 min. How long does it take to set up your system?

As always good hearing from you. Gary
 

barncat

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I already listed the amp draw for ignition plus LED headlight above. H4 style LED bulbs are all over eBay. Do a search.

With all due respect to an experienced racer- you can't tell me that removing 4lbs of rotating mass from the crank, the electromagnetic
resistance, and waste heat does not improve performance. Do I have an exact figure? No, but physics are immutable.

The point is to have a dependable lightweight energy dense battery. It's technically a hybrid system. Why have onboard charging if you can plug into the wall for a couple hours? Lead acid doesn't work well because voltage drops steadily and immediately and they are heavy and bulky. A nominal 20V li-ion pack feeds a steady selectable output V.

Again, this sort of thing is not for everyone but works for the kick-only minimalist builds out
there...
 

barncat

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Hooser- your last post came in while I was writing mine. You just proved my point re battery type/design.
 

hooser

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I already listed the amp draw for ignition plus LED headlight above. H4 style LED bulbs are all over eBay. Do a search.

With all due respect to an experienced racer- you can't tell me that removing 4lbs of rotating mass from the crank, the electromagnetic
resistance, and waste heat does not improve performance. Do I have an exact figure? No, but physics are immutable.

The point is to have a dependable lightweight energy dense battery. It's technically a hybrid system. Why have onboard charging if you can plug into the wall for a couple hours? Lead acid doesn't work well because voltage drops steadily and immediately and they are heavy and bulky. A nominal 20V li-ion pack feeds a steady selectable output V.

Again, this sort of thing is not for everyone but works for the kick-only minimalist builds out
there...

For racing you don't know the Yamaha 650 very well the main problem with them was the lack of flywheel weight compared to the Harleys and Triumph's for the dirt track. Just could not get the power to the ground. We add crank weight on the flat track motors Most road racers I sell to use the smaller inner spud rotors, very little weight And reliable. They don't have to carry extra batteries and chargers.
A good friend used total loss last year on his Triumph , had battery problems and missed the main.. I gave him a new System and made a believer out of him and he is very old school.
 
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