TROUBLESHOOTING A PMA...KICK ONLY NO BATTERY....THAT STARTED THE BIKE ONCE...

[backatit]

Greetings to all.

My last bike was a 1976 honda cb400 supersport.....then i took 30 years off while I raised boys and did not want them on motorcycles in losangeles at ages 16-21. I recently bought a rebuilt 1978 xs650 (a special, i think), which had been converted by a gent even older than me. He was really old school, having raced at the old Ascot raceway in OC, Calif.

Anyway, the bike has a tc bros PMA set up....no battery....kick only. The bike is tough to kick over....prob. Due to the quality rebuild....and the PMA did start the bike once.....after I kicked it anout 60 times! I figured it was not getting fuel. I git busy on other stuff and returned to the bike 3 weeks later. Put fresh. Fuel in....nothing. Now i am getting no spark. The only thing I can think of is that when i was relocating the kill swith (3 prong), I messed up and reversed the wires. But it never stsrted like that ....although i kicked it....before I reversed the wires back. My question is....could my mistake have fried soemthing and if so...what?
If not, where should i begin in working backwards to find the issue?
Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Jan_P]

Not knowing the wiring
It is possible to fry electronics connecting it wrong
But not on a kill switch that easily. if stock
One need a wiring schematic.here
PMA is that not permanent magnetic alternator .. The ignition can be a different circuit
If you can identify the parts on the bike we usually can get it going.
Methodology is first reverse where changes was done ( even on computers restore Point )
I would most likely start at plugs and work upstream.
But again the schematic . and system description
Assuming the no spark --- this is checked otherwise priming the carburetor could be way forward.

 

[timbeck]

Backatit---You need to remove the left side chrome cover near the top of the motor. It's about 2 1/2 in had has 2 screws. Then send us a picture of whats inside..........
Good looking ride...
tim

 

[backatit]

Backatit---You need to remove the left side chrome cover near the top of the motor. It's about 2 1/2 in had has 2 screws. Then send us a picture of whats inside..........
Good looking ride...
tim

 

[backatit]

Here are the pics ...the schematic has most of the major stuff but lights, etc I have not completed. Any advice is gratefully accepted. Thank you. Chris

 

[backatit]

Please see my reply below

Backatit---You need to remove the left side chrome cover near the top of the motor. It's about 2 1/2 in had has 2 screws. Then send us a picture of whats inside..........
Good looking ride...
tim

ase

 

[backatit]

Please see reply below

Backatit---You need to remove the left side chrome cover near the top of the motor. It's about 2 1/2 in had has 2 screws. Then send us a picture of whats inside..........
Good looking ride...
tim

reply

 

[Jan_P]

I am no expert on this system
But a check that Fuses are sitting all right and not broken
That is a points ignition
Please check at points ( perhaps need a friend watching ) if there is something sparking there when kicking
Ground is a very common problem on other ignitions on these bikes
Wait a while till someone says its OK --- Or do the read up yourself . It can go wrong if you don't do it right
Take out a spark plug rest it against the cylinder head kick and look for a spark.

 

[timbeck]

Do as Jan suggested , remove plugs and ground them to the engine. Disconnect capacitor and hook up a good 12 volt battery. Kicking will be easier with the plugs out and check for a big fat spark. At that point you can start to determine if your problem is electrical or fuel....... or both.....

tim

 

[backatit]

Thanks for the replies. In order to use a 12 volt battery to start it....i connect the positive where? And the negative where? Before do this, I only need to disconnect the capacitor? Correct?

Dumb question, but do i. Need a 12v motorcycle battery, or can i use any 12volt battery from the hardware store?

The bike started when i first got it, so i want to hook it bsck up witn kill switch and try again before i go to your suggestion. Looking at my diagram, when hooking up the three prong kill switch,

It has earth (ground)
Load
Supply.
For the three prongs. Is the pink wire running directly from capacitor the supply? And then the red wire running to the 20A fuse the load? Correct? Thank you very much for the advice

 

[timbeck]

Your schematic shows pos and neg wires on the capacitor. Disconnect them and hook them up to a "good" 12 volt battery. Use the battery from your car if you need to. CHECK TO SEE IF YOU HAVE SPARK........

tim

 

[backatit]

Thank you again very much? Did anyone have a thought re my kill switch hook up question? Thanks

I will try the 12v battery asap

 

[X77S]

If you didnt bypass it, the kill switch needs to be part of the loop.

 

[timbeck]

I believe you are better off to disconnect the kill switch. Keep things very simple. Get spark, try to start engine............

tim,

 

[backatit]

Looking at my beautiful diagram, I noticed the red wire coming from rectifier is currently not connected to the capacitor first.....and then run over to the fuses. Presently it just runs the power,over to fuses and then out to bike

As,it is now, the power travels from pma to rectifier to fuses ....and then up towards the kill switch near handle bars.
If the kill switch is off.....then the power never gets back to the capacitor (normally. If wired correctly....you can kick it a few times to build up power in capacitor)
If the kill switch is on....then the power goes back to capacitor, but as i am kicking to charge up the capacitor....the carbs are flooding.
Fun times for all!

From my view, the pma no battery set up seems great if you use your bike all the time. If not, the capacitor runs to zero and when you go to kick it.....you get no spark. .....(or.....at least i am not having luck on my on my rebuilt high compression engine lol)

My research reveals that it may be possible to run both a capacitor and a battery (prob a less than full size battery is sufficient). While this is more work, then I would have 2 ways of getting power to get a spark to get the bike going. Has anybody done that? If so, how did you wire it in....specifically. Thanks for all the help thus far.

 

[gggGary]

Um just toss the cap and run a smaller battery for kick only. Lithium is decent/good, light, small, no spill. Quality, durability varies but is improving with leaps and bounds. You want to get one with it's own BMS (Battery management system) this prevents overcharging.

 

[X77S]

If I'm thinking correctly, I may be wrong as wiring isnt my strong suit. The PMA should go to reg/rec then to capacitor. From the capacitor to fuse block then each system gets run from fuse block. The capacitor is taking place of the battery.

If I'm reading what you wrote correctly you have the capacitor after the fuses / fuse block?

I bought a PMA and capacitor that I have yet to wire since the motor is out of the bike. This is the simplest easy to read diagram I can find that has all necessary systems to run and charge.

 

[X77S]

Side note I see this is a Pamco ignition diagram so if you have points it will be a bit different.

 

[Jan_P]

Please look at Mr Timbecks posts #12
There are essentially 3 subsystems that needs to be right or close to that
Spark ... Strength and Timing
Fuel
Air
In my experience it is rarely the ignition nor Air.. that gets lost after a " Winter Hibernation " If we are talking normal storage it is more often the carburetors
Needing a little chemicals or patience. Perhaps a service.
Even if the Points can give some head scratching. I believe problems should have been noticed before. .
My guess at this point in time would be not an electrical problem at all
If Mr T s test with a battery and charging disconnected we would be able to rule the spark problem out.
or the opposite.

 

[backatit]

Um just toss the cap and run a smaller battery for kick only. Lithium is decent/good, light, small, no spill. Quality, durability varies but is improving with leaps and bounds. You want to get one with it's own BMS (Battery management system) this prevents overcharging.

I am with you brother. Any suggestions re battery. I'm not exactly certain how small a battery I can run so that it will still be sufficient to get a spark at the plugs. I don't wanna waste money on a small battery and then not have it work and have to buy a bigger one so I'm wondering if anybody out there has done this or if you have any idea