I think the filling with sand has merit, and use multiple straps a little at a time, one click on each at a time
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win some, lose some -- 1971 XS1B
- Thread starter DogBunny
- Start date
All great ideas on the stuck motor, but my personality is tending towards Gary's. I'm probably going to go ahead with the fancy store-bought jack screw. It has a swivel head, will be used on multiple motors, maybe will find other uses for it, and for $30 I just like it. Going to give it 24 hours, and then I'll buy it.
As for the piece of steel: I live 2 miles from an excellent metal supply house. They have a "drop" area (remnants) that they sell by the pound. I'll see what they have. Most likely will just be a thick plate that spans 4 studs.
As for the piece of steel: I live 2 miles from an excellent metal supply house. They have a "drop" area (remnants) that they sell by the pound. I'll see what they have. Most likely will just be a thick plate that spans 4 studs.
Pictures, old bud!
Funny I had you as the kind of guy (me) that has a pile "of too good to toss" scrap iron....
Funny I had you as the kind of guy (me) that has a pile "of too good to toss" scrap iron....
I do have a bin of scrap iron, but since I don't weld, it's not extensive, and mostly small stuff.
I started with ATF/acetone poured through the spark plug holes. I lost confidence in it after just a few days, and took the head off so that I could clean the mixture out and move on to vinegar. A crust develops on the surface of the vinegar. In the pic, I have broken up the crust with my finger. The crust is black iron oxide??? Shouldn't that sink instead of float?
The vinegar really cleaned up the piston top and the cylinder nice after just a couple of days. I periodically sponged it out and refreshed it over two weeks. Every time the crust would re-form after 24 hours. Which is weird, because everything looked pretty clean and rust-free by then. So what is the crust really, and where is it coming from?
After two weeks, I lost confidence in the vinegar. I had a little left over ATF/acetone mix, so I went back to it.
More importantly, I added the 1/2" PVC spacers shown to the studs. A 2M idea, he said they wouldn't harm the jugs. This allows me to torque on the crank in both directions. Being able to move the pistons upwards is especially logical to me, as it means that I am moving the piston into an area of the bore that is "clean" by virtue of the vinegar eliminating the rust.
It's been like this for a week. I'm about to switch back to the vinegar.
I started with ATF/acetone poured through the spark plug holes. I lost confidence in it after just a few days, and took the head off so that I could clean the mixture out and move on to vinegar. A crust develops on the surface of the vinegar. In the pic, I have broken up the crust with my finger. The crust is black iron oxide??? Shouldn't that sink instead of float?
The vinegar really cleaned up the piston top and the cylinder nice after just a couple of days. I periodically sponged it out and refreshed it over two weeks. Every time the crust would re-form after 24 hours. Which is weird, because everything looked pretty clean and rust-free by then. So what is the crust really, and where is it coming from?
After two weeks, I lost confidence in the vinegar. I had a little left over ATF/acetone mix, so I went back to it.
More importantly, I added the 1/2" PVC spacers shown to the studs. A 2M idea, he said they wouldn't harm the jugs. This allows me to torque on the crank in both directions. Being able to move the pistons upwards is especially logical to me, as it means that I am moving the piston into an area of the bore that is "clean" by virtue of the vinegar eliminating the rust.
It's been like this for a week. I'm about to switch back to the vinegar.
So, my fancy $45 of custom ratchet straps arrived (see post #9). Bought 5, could only fit up 4. These are what's called endless straps, or bundling straps -- look it up -- and you can't just go to HF or Lowe's for them. Now I know what I should have bought. I thought the wider, the better, in order to distribute forces, but the problem is the wide straps don't conform to the sloping tank. I should have ordered nine 1" endless ratchet straps.
In order to keep the too-wide straps from slipping off the sloping tank, I had to wire them to each other.
In any case, It was very easy to close up the sprung tank a little. It's far from perfect, but the main thing is that I got the distance between the damper locators where they should be, so the tank mounts up good. There was a little buckling at the front top of the tunnel, as the pic shows. Looking at my before pics, I think the beginnings of this buckling were already there, but I made it worse. Nothing that can't be fixed with a shrinking hammer and some Bondo. Far from perfect, but with some body work and paint, once mounted, no one should be able to tell anything is wrong with it.
Well that's another rare tank saved from the scrap pile.
I've just looked at the pictures of your stuck pistons, and those barrels are the rare early type for the four bolt type chain tensioner .
Worth making an effort to save even if the pistons and liners are scrap.
I suspect that you'll end up having to sacrifice that piston in order to save the crank and barrels.
I think that I might try carving away the piston with a die grinder, until there isn't enough piston left to grip the bore
I've just looked at the pictures of your stuck pistons, and those barrels are the rare early type for the four bolt type chain tensioner .
Worth making an effort to save even if the pistons and liners are scrap.
I suspect that you'll end up having to sacrifice that piston in order to save the crank and barrels.
I think that I might try carving away the piston with a die grinder, until there isn't enough piston left to grip the bore
Kinda.I also split my tank right at the top front of the tunnel using air to pop a dent.
Curious if the tank were restrained before pressurizing what the outcome would be.
Has anyone done this? If I had an old tank I'd give it a try.
I used my bench vise to close the tunnel back up and soldered the split.
Still trying to save the piston, just to see if it can be done. Am now using PB Blaster. Several times a day I whack the piston top with a 3-pound hand sledge on a wood block, 100 hits at a time, probably at least 500 whacks a day. Done in an effort to get the penetrating fluid to infinitesimally
penetrate a little bit more each time.
Waiting for my fancy jack screw to arrive from India, and then I'll get serious. I have a couple of ideas regarding using the jack screw
That is an excellent idea. Put straps on the outside of the tank. Block the tunnel area of the tank -- there are a few ways this could be done. Then pressurize.
Your vise must be huge.
I have a question for the brain trust about freeing my stuck piston.
Got this piece of 1/4" plate drilled and ready for the studs, to be cut at the red line. (PVC spacers to be removed.) As I apply pressure with the jack bolt to the stuck piston, I'll be able to pound on the other piston with wood block and hammer.
My question: should I worry about pulling the studs right out of the aluminum case? Admittedly, the part of the stud that goes into the case has much longer threading (top of pic) compared to the top-of-stud threads (bottom of pic). Am I worrying about nothing?
I could make the plate span all 8 studs, that would lessen the chance of pull-out, but then I wouldn't have access to the off-side piston which I want to pound on.
Who needs a scrap pile when you can ride 2 miles and get what you need for free?
Okay, so I am preparing to do this. Up to now, been using penetrant and banging on this piston 500 times every day for a month, also torqueing on the crank. On a scale of one to ten, I'd say the piston is stuck as hell.
Got this piece of 1/4" plate drilled and ready for the studs, to be cut at the red line. (PVC spacers to be removed.) As I apply pressure with the jack bolt to the stuck piston, I'll be able to pound on the other piston with wood block and hammer.
My question: should I worry about pulling the studs right out of the aluminum case? Admittedly, the part of the stud that goes into the case has much longer threading (top of pic) compared to the top-of-stud threads (bottom of pic). Am I worrying about nothing?
I could make the plate span all 8 studs, that would lessen the chance of pull-out, but then I wouldn't have access to the off-side piston which I want to pound on.
Bonus info: I went to the metal supply house, found an appropriate piece of steel in the "drop zone," weight was 6 pounds at one dollar per pound, take it to the counter, and the guy says "no charge." This happens all the time when all I need is a small piece.
Who needs a scrap pile when you can ride 2 miles and get what you need for free?
We know the studs can comfortably hold about 35 ft-lbs of torque... plus the force of the power stroke trying to disassemble the head every other rotation. I think I'd call it a day at about 40 ft-lbs. If it ain't budged by then... prolly time to consider the hole saw.
I'd also load it up to the max torque you'll be using and give it about 12 hrs to see if it's budged.
Not quiet the same thing, but..... In the airplane world we had wings held together with what are called "taper lock" fasteners. They would stick fast trying to remove 'em. We did exactly that... loaded 'em to max torque and went back and looked after 12 hrs.... 'cause usually they wouldn't budge when you first loaded 'em... took some time to break free.
I'd also load it up to the max torque you'll be using and give it about 12 hrs to see if it's budged.
Not quiet the same thing, but..... In the airplane world we had wings held together with what are called "taper lock" fasteners. They would stick fast trying to remove 'em. We did exactly that... loaded 'em to max torque and went back and looked after 12 hrs.... 'cause usually they wouldn't budge when you first loaded 'em... took some time to break free.
I made similar for a BSA single cylinder, except I made the plate thicker and used 1" all thread as a jacking bolt against some round spacers on the piston crown.
In your case I would consider making it to fit both sides simultaneously. I think you'll discover that once it breaks free it'll move reasonably easily, and probably won't take that much force to break it free.
In your case I would consider making it to fit both sides simultaneously. I think you'll discover that once it breaks free it'll move reasonably easily, and probably won't take that much force to break it free.
Also... your little screw jack thingy.... if it's sacrificial, give it some good smacks after it's loaded up. That force will translate directly into downward force on the piston and won't put any extra load on the studs. It'll be the blows... plus the 40 ft lbs of torque.
All that, and I'll ADD LOL
with the piston loaded up under pressure with bolts etc, then smack the center of that plate, piece of hardwood to get you above the frame and a maul. it'll move. maybe just a little bit but move. Yes you need to make sure you don't start applying twisting loads to rod and crank by uneven piston movement.
Grape minds....
with the piston loaded up under pressure with bolts etc, then smack the center of that plate, piece of hardwood to get you above the frame and a maul. it'll move. maybe just a little bit but move. Yes you need to make sure you don't start applying twisting loads to rod and crank by uneven piston movement.
Grape minds....
The jack screw thingy arrived yesterday, and it clearly is not stout enough (it's 1/2"). I didn't realize that Home Depot has 3/4" bolts in stock, I didn't think they went up that big, will be using one of them. Yes, 1" would be better, but would require ordering/expense/hassle.
About this twisting loads to rod and crank thing... As I see it, there is no load at all to rod/crank while pounding, or jack-bolting, as long as the piston is stuck. 100% of the pounding or jacking force is transferred to the cylinder sleeve.
When you torque on the crank it's a different matter, but you can only torque the crank so much for fear of striping out the crank end threads, so not a huge fear of twisting load damage.
Maybe I'm visioning this incorrectly.
Once the stuck piston moves, even a fraction, then you go out of heavy-hand mode and back into finesses mode. Put the PVC spacers back on, use penetrant and time, and work the piston in both directions, up and down.
Am I wrong? Sort of getting ahead of myself, let's see what happens.
About this twisting loads to rod and crank thing... As I see it, there is no load at all to rod/crank while pounding, or jack-bolting, as long as the piston is stuck. 100% of the pounding or jacking force is transferred to the cylinder sleeve.
When you torque on the crank it's a different matter, but you can only torque the crank so much for fear of striping out the crank end threads, so not a huge fear of twisting load damage.
Maybe I'm visioning this incorrectly.
Once the stuck piston moves, even a fraction, then you go out of heavy-hand mode and back into finesses mode. Put the PVC spacers back on, use penetrant and time, and work the piston in both directions, up and down.
Am I wrong? Sort of getting ahead of myself, let's see what happens.
As long as BOTH pistons are moving more or less together down the bores you should be fine. If one piston is stuck while you move the other by brute force...............
Work both sides simultaneously, as much as possible
I'm with Gary on this one. We know from too many experiences here on the forum that the XS crank will bend (twist... scissor) relatively easy. That's why a lot of folk weld 'em when they go back together.
I wouldn't think about loading up the other piston. Little to gain and a lot to lose if you bend the crank.
I wouldn't think about loading up the other piston. Little to gain and a lot to lose if you bend the crank.
Just had another look at the plate you're making. I know it's been mentioned before, but I think I'd drill a hole in the middle of the plate and screw a grease zerk in there. Using grease under pressure would be your best bet to save everything because it's gonna spread the pressure evenly across the piston. You'll get much greater force that way... vs isolating the pressure to a small spot in the center of the piston.
That's a great idea. Good chance I'm going with it.
I should have gone with the spark plug zerk from the beginning, but judging from the rest of the bike, I really didn't think the piston would be this badly stuck. Lesson learned -- next time I'll go straight to the spark plug zerk. (Didn't know which cylinder was stuck, but a borescope would have revealed that. Or, could have grease-gunned both cylinders simultaneously.) And, there will be a next time, I have another XS1B stuck motor.
I had a really great idea for spreading the jack bolt force across the entire piston top. Shame I'm probably no longer going to get a chance to try it. Will share it later.
Heat was always going to be part of the equation. Was going to torque up the jack bolt, then apply heat via two heat lamps, and as suggested, let it sit, and come back and torque a little more, etc. For larger surfaces/items, the heat lamps work great.
