Years of neglect

[badlegbill]

I have just managed to get my workspace from 6 years ago back.
So I have a number of engines, 6, which have been left in an unheated damp outbuilding, some partly assembled and some complete.
Now I could buy a bath and fill it with cocacola or cheap cola with phosphoric acid and leave them in it for a couple of weeks but I am hoping somebody has a better solution.
I have an SE in black with gold pinstriping that is complete that I want to tackle first because my grandson is currently riding my SR125 and will probably pass his test soon.
The hardtail is hopefully next, his mother is too short to straddle the SE, but thats for later.
I leant on the kickstart of the SE and the motor did not want to move so I put some Automatic Transmission fluid in both bores and am planning on leaving it for a couple of days before trying again.
Any tips on reviving/recovering neglected engines will be gratefully received as i have never had quite this scale of problem before.

 

[nj1639]

Soak the cylinders like you're doing with something that will penetrate and use the nut/crankshaft - not the kickstarter - to see if she frees up.
I used a breaker bar and a rubber mallet on that crank shaft rotor nut to free my '77 up. It had been sitting a couple of decades.

 

[40north]

Soak the cylinders like you're doing with something that will penetrate and use the nut/crankshaft - not the kickstarter - to see if she frees up.
I used a breaker bar and a rubber mallet on that crank shaft rotor nut to free my '77 up. It had been sitting a couple of decades.

Rather spendy, "Kroil" - see if somebody can swipe a gallon for you... The boiler fellas swear by it, and it smells very nice.

Longtimeago I got a CL77 (305 honda) for 12 dollars - "seized" he said. Wrapped leather 'round the crank spline and used a pipe wrench. She came loose from the weight of the wrench! That was it. She ran for years after that, flat out and making runs for drink.

Don't horse it...rock gently...

 

[jetmechmarty]

Rather than the nut on the crankshaft, use a strap wrench on the charging rotor.

 

[gggGary]

Get ahold of a bore-scope and look inside. No sense wasting a bunch of time trying to free up an engine that's going to need a bore and pistons anyways.
Think the smaller honda's stuck and freed a bit easier than the XS lump. Usually once an xs is stuck beyond a pretty simple bump it's rusty enough to need a top job.

 

[40north]

Get ahold of a bore-scope and look inside. No sense wasting a bunch of time trying to free up an engine that's going to need a bore and pistons anyways.
Think the smaller honda's stuck and freed a bit easier than the XS lump. Usually once an xs is stuck beyond a pretty simple bump it's rusty enough to need a top job.

Good advice, Friend. I forgot about bore-scope....these new things!
Not only my 12$ 305> I have also freed a 454 boat engine that aspirated some water thru exhaust. and got lucky with a big 6 in a boat, and a Volvo 2 cylinder diesel that had been underwater. That said, there's a real chance of broken rings if it takes much effort. Still, it'd make teardown easier if she came lose first, even if rings break or pistons' lands distorted etc. I never trusted the 305, not for a long time, as I feared ring trouble. The others were workjobs, and I don't know how they turned out for their owners. long-term.

I read about some P-51 Merlins that were used and abandoned in OZ after nuke blast effects. The sand filled any open cylinders, but things were dry. They blew out the sand, and got at least one going. Flew her out. The radiation levels had dropped.

Best!

 

[Jan_P]

When something is stuck I use Motor oil and patience ..Leaving it .and then try .If no Success leave it longer
Oil is good at leaking out and in .. Leaving it for more than days .Weeks and why not months If there is time
If you have six .there can be so.
Over time use more force .. Sometimes it fails and the force damage things
But I accept that.
Never freed any engine but I would try the same method .perhaps applying heat from the outside.
With oil in there
But the bore scope is a good idea they are not expensive.

 

[badlegbill]

Thank you all for your suggestions, I do work with older vehicles, hence references to the BSA 1956 and my daily driver Cortina 1976 both of which were "rescued" and have found a number of things out, but I have never had an opportunity like this to do side by side comparison.
Engine oil is designed not to be harmful to materials commonly found in an engine so is unlikely to do harm but my choice of ATF was not random, if you put two pieces of sheet steel on top of each other and then paint oil on the edge for a couple of inches and then brake fluid, wd40 and finally ATF you will probably find when you lift the top plate that the ATF has travelled further than the others because it has phenomenal creep at lower temperatures.
Hot corn oil or olive oil has some good creep if you heat the block evenly.
Nobody seems to think the bottom end needs special treatment which is interesting I will be posting images in this thread as we go.
Meantime, assuming at least some have damage I would be happy to hear experiences with big bore conversions and maybe arguments for and against rephasing.

 

[badlegbill]

Not sure what I would be looking at with a bore scope, I've used one to check for scratches or witness marks in a bore or a piston crown but in a seized motor neither are visible so rust I guess.
OK just answered my own question, significant rust and you have more forceful options like removing the head nuts before rotating the bottom end, because once it is busted it stays busted. I'll dig one out tomorrow.

 

[Jan_P]

I don't like bigger bore or rephasing
In the 70 ies i saw people invest gazillions of money on an alreday worn bike and did not come far before things started to break
The twin has problems getting larger -- kick starting on Norton's ---500 -- 650 is a working concept
The 650 is not that bad if you are revving it as stock everything adjusted Enough for most riders
And the brakes might not be sufficient ..

Other can have other opinions .. But even though the XS is known to handle bigger size cylinders
I believe it is a road to causing expensive problems.

If one is after more power a 20 - 30 year more modern bike can make sense

 

[badlegbill]

Sensible thoughts, thank you, I agree changing torque and power values upwards should usually be left to the experts, personally I have only ever had a problem kickstarting a Norton with the model 19, which put me on my ass in the street more than once and I was 270lbs then.
Much truth in what you say about big boring in general but I am interested specifically in the XS and how the bottom end and gearbox handle the extra power and torque.
The legendary 650 twins here in the UK were mostly dependent on post crank oil pressure in vertically split cases, which obviously dropped off a cliff when the crank and caps distorted under the additional loading or wore unevenly, so the comparison with the ball race crank in horizontal cases is exactly the question I'm trying to understand.
I love the torque curve on the standard motor and the gearing can be individualised for maximum utility, or enjoyment, but here in the UK highway speeds are mostly around 80-90mph so that gearing , on sustained high speeds, can be tiring at my age, I don't do long trips often and the torque as standard is fine in the city but I want power to pull a longer gear so I can use medium revs around 70.
I don't think that needs an ambitious change, as you mentioned Norton consider the difference between the 650 Atlas and the 750 Commando, you would have to look hard for anybody to say the Atlas was a better motorway ride. The same is true for the T120 and T140.
Yes a newer bike will give more power and, probably, reliability but my FJ1200 was too heavy at my age, a standard XS is about the biggest bike I can pick up now, I do keep a 4pot GPZ running for short high speed runs but it makes my legs ache and me appreciate the XS riding position.
Ideally I will get help from you and people who are riding enlarged or rephased motors to understand their characteristics and settle on rebuilding at least one of the damaged engines suitably. I would need persuading of the advantages of rephasing but I have time too listen.
Meantime I will keep trawling existing posts to see what people have already said.
Thanks again

 

[40north]

Thoughts> maybe a bit of camshaft and a taste of jetting and exhaust improvement would suffice. I'm 195 and well over 70...and the XS vibration aggravates arthritis - assuming you too...the rephase might be nice..less vibrrraaattion. For me anything over 50 hp is gravy. I am surprised at your UK motorway speeds! Others know the XS better by far, but I heard the bottom end is more or less bulletproof. Best!

 

[badlegbill]

Thanks for the advice about camshafts, I'll look at some, at the moment I am in the middle of looking to see how rich the 34s will run as I'm not heading to California any time soon, not killed any spark plugs yet..
So glad it has factory electronic ignition.
Not finished yet as I put new intakes, filters and exhaust gaskets in today so I can get some real readings.
Balance pipe on the exhaust was rotten and did nor survive removal so it is running on a 3" 2 to 1.
She's a rescue and is looking and running better than I had a right to expect.
Changed the front drain and blew clean the side filter before firing, did it again after I had got the carbs running on idle and have just pulled both drain plugs after 150 miles, side filter was clean but the crap in the box had softened enough to come out.
The low rider chassis is real stiff and will be built for sale unless it is more comfortable than an SE so I thought pumping it up a bit might get me a better return than replacing standard pots and liners. Putting slide carbs on that lump because thats what all the boys want.
There was an engineering firm in the UK called Halco a while back who built grass trackers and grass trikes, they put external bracing on their 900s with just a bit of welded bracing on standard cases so I am guessing the bottom end is very overengineered.
Motorways here are for serious drivers and riders, you need to do a minimum of 70 to avoid being walled in by trucks who you know can't see you and at least 80 to avoid cars missing you by inches as they maximise progress, you do not use the outside lane unless you want to maintain 90 and even then I have had motors rubbing my back wheel to encourage me to let them pass, if you are already flat out that's not great fun. Come and give them a try anytime you like but have bike capable of more than 110mph or be in a car .
Backroads and single laners are what I ride on mostly, you still get where you are going and enjoy the journey more.

 

[40north]

Thanks for a very fine reply. If I were in UK I'd bring the 1340 evo, or put the 1200 jugs on the sporty. Alas, when last in UK the locos were steam in London, and the late night London streets in rain were deserted. Not to wax into politics, but we recall the bigbigspeech by Enoch Powell... I'd prefer the UK that was. Flatslides, my running XS has that, and they're thirsty and bitchy...sluts at the bar, but they do go, and the throttle is 1/4 turn.
Our village in cali > twolanes run at 60-65 unless you don't, interstate 70-80. I prefer back road twisties and slow. Last year I "found" an old onelane road that led into a lattice-steel bridge - atop of which roosted a pair of eagles, slow ahead trying to keep the noise down. I used to work with a fella from Oxford who was living on his boat on the Sacramento river, 30 years ago. Later old man! Best!

 

[badlegbill]

Best to you Dude, I have never liked London,, crowded or empty but there is plenty more to see and do while you mend your HD.