Help!!! Charging system is pissing me off!!!

[81-650chopper]

First off I would like to say I'm new here. So hi!!! Here's a short story. I bought a 81 xs650 April 2009 in pieces. 6 weeks later I had it chopped dropped and rolling down the road. It was great! Then 3 weeks went by and the problems started. Overcharging, undercharging, it couldn't make up it's mind what it wanted to do. I tryed the radio shack and auto parts voltage regulator rectifier combo. That worked for a while, then quit also. I need some help I think my wiring is a little off. I've seen a few different examples each 1 is a little different from the next so what is right for me? I'm pretty smart and I think I know what I'm doing. I'm usually very good with wiring but I even brought it to a local electric repair shop that rebuilds alternators and starters and anything else with automotive and electrical and we couldn't figure it out. So besides giving up and buying 600 bucks in new parts my only other option is to ask for more help. Because I have a feeling I would buy the parts and still have the same problem. Any advice you could give would help. Thanks so much

 

[81-650chopper]

Ok well here is hopefully a simpler question rather than a general one. After hours of staring at a screen and reading wiring diagrams. I had to change brushes and brush holder on my chopper from my parts bike that's an older and points setup motor. Which I believe the brush's wiring is different. So my question is which brush is suposed to be what color wire? I think that could be where 1 problem is if I have the 2 wires reversed???

 

[Gordon]

81, the charging system's on these bike's is a weak area. Both brushes have to be isolated from ground. The red wire go's to the inner brush, closest to the nut that holds on the rotor. The green wire goes to the outer brush. This is when using a stock wiring harness at the alternator. I burnt up 3 rotors before I found a bad ground, causing allot of heat build up with the rotor wiring. The bad ground was from the engine to the frame, believe it or not. The remedy was to make a ground cable up & bolt it to the cam chain adjuster bolt & the other end on the frame where the negative battery cable bolt's to. there are manual's posted on the home page if you don't have one allready. You definately want to make sure the rotor is within spec, using an ohm meter, on the low scale,measure the resistance from one 'slip ring' to the other with the brushes out of the holder. You have got to have continuity between the 2 slip ring's, of 5-6 ohms. And no continuity between each slip ring and the housing. If either of those are NOT within spec, your gonna need a rotor.Also, the stator has reading's also, between each of the three white wire's & ground(the case it sits in). I do not remember the spec for the stator, but these are all in your manual.
My problem was very similar to your's, I would get all kind's of different reading's at the battery. Then, my battery was flat, so I used a good car battery & jumper cables. Hooked one end up to the positive post, the pther to the engine. Then my readings were perfect, nice, and stable. Hmmm, checked the resistance from the engine to the negative post on the battery & it was real high. So the cable made all the difference.Ben riding it for 3 year's now with no more charging problem's. With the stock regulator assy. You stated that you did most of your own wiring, the only thing is be certain that your alternator & TCI (ignition pick up) are right.

 

[81-650chopper]

Thanks Gordon. I do believe I've had my brushes backwards. I will also check my grounds a little more but I do believe I have that covered. So here's a dumb question, if the charging systems are such a problem on these bikes why doesn't somebody build a solution except fixing the crappy system and hoping it lasts for a while??????? Hmmmmmm just wondering?????? Anyays thanks Gordon

 

[xstwin]

Sparx has built a solution but if you dont wanna spend $400 you can make your own out of other bike parts .If I had to run a stock charging system I would never own another xs

 

[pamcopete]

Well, I've heard all this before. IMHO, there is nothing wrong with the XS650 charging system. In fact, it is so well designed that it can run for 30 + years without a minutes worth of attention, but then it finally gives up through neglect, and people bitch about it.

During those 30 years of inattention, thousands of dollars have been spent on the sexier and more "showy" parts. Rebuilt engines, powder coated frames, shiny chrome mufflers, and all the other more exciting parts of the bike. The charging system just sits there, minding it's own business, trying hard to keep going with no attention whatsoever.

I have the standard charging system on both my '78/E and '81/H, but I do pay attention to them. Both have new solid state regulators and rectifiers. The brushes are checked at least twice a year. The rotor slip rings are cleaned. The fuses are changed.

Is that a lot of maintenance? Well, I don't think so. No more than changing the oil, adjusting the carbs and valves, adjusting the timing chain and drive chain etc.

In other words, the XS650 is high maintenance, but people just ignore the need to maintain the very reliable charging system because it just keeps going with no maintenance until the day it just can't go any further.

 

[Sundie]

So here's a dumb question, if the charging systems are such a problem on these bikes why doesn't somebody build a solution except fixing the crappy system and hoping it lasts for a while??????? Hmmmmmm just wondering??????

In their defense, they're a perfectly good system, given a good battery. Rotors lasting 30+ years is pretty amazing, and it's almost always *not* the rotor/stator's issue, but wiring. Either through 30 years of just sitting there going through heat cycles, or unintentional miswiring frying it. Rewiring the charging loom with all new wiring will probably last another 30 years, easily. I've only ever had one rotor give up on me (and these things are actually pretty tough, having no moving parts, and only the slip ring possibly having any wear - which it won't, if you keep up with your brushes) and at $120 for a rebuild, i'm okay with that.

 

[Sundie]

Well, I've heard all this before. IMHO, there is nothing wrong with the XS650 charging system. In fact, it is so well designed that it can run for 30 + years without a minutes worth of attention, but then it finally gives up through neglect, and people bitch about it.

Heh. I think it's because everything else is so over designed, having an item only "well designed" is a come down.

 

[Gordon]

81, Pete is correct in saying that there is nothing wrong with these system's. They are old, and component's do wear out. Wiring is an issue, too, because of age. But you said that you re-wired the bike, correct? So that won't be an issue for you. Tell us, which diagram did you use? That could be a big help.
The rotor is nothing more than an electic magnet. It turn's on & off with your key. If you do have the wire's reversed, you would get problems as you described. The rectifier is, more or less, a one-way valve for the A/C current the alternator put's out. Turns it into D.C. So if the current into the rotor is reversed, so is the current being produced.

 

[81-650chopper]

http://i957.photobucket.com/albums/ae54/inxs-de/wiring/xs650.jpg

This is basicly the wiring diagram I used. Is this correct? I believe it is. I'm in the process of completely re-wiring again. The very first time I wired it I think it was wrong and after a few quick re-wires something must have got off.

 

[retiredgentleman]

Yeah, I'm also tired of hearing that old story of how bad the charging system is on these bikes. Clean the electrical connectors, pay attention to the brushes, replace with modern rectifiers (on a heat sink) and a solid state regulator....................end result is a totally reliable charging system.

Yes the rotor or stator may fail after 30 or more years..................but that is just incredible durability. How often do you replace alternators or starter motors on Chev/Ford/ Chysler vehicles? When I have opened up some of the electrical parts on my bike, such as the safety relay, ignition switch, alternator rotor and starter motor, (78 Special), I am always amazed at how well the Hitachi parts are made.

 

[81-650chopper]

I'm not saying it's completely junk becaus I don't know that much about them to judge completely but I read a lot about their flaws. Retired gentleman I'm not 100% sure what you mean by changing it to a modern reg/rec like a solid state. I'm not sure on all the terminology on solid state ect.

 

[inxs]

- on the other hand, as you say, these are 30 years old, from a bike thats reknown for its vibrations and often had many PO's that have butchered the wiring in one form or another...yes, the connections are more often than not, old, tired, dirty and have been subject to many hours of use-but can, in many cases be resurrected

- excited charging systems basically consist of stator, rotor, brushes, rectifier, regulator, cabling and battery...brushes and battery are normal wearing parts, so if you have to troubleshoot your old wiring and replace the rectifier and regulator, around half your remaining parts, in order to achieve continuity of reliability for a system that is operating close to its limits and dependant upon a well functioning battery and youre not concerned with retaining originality, then i would think its fair enough to be considering your options

- indeed, for those interested in street-tracking, cafe-racing, bobbing, chopping, upgrading etc, there are distinct advantages to removing the necessity for, and dependance upon an optimised battery...try running a boyer ignition and e-start on a non-optimised original charging and delivery system...let alone those looking for the clean look who chose not to run a battery at all

- all in all, as you say these are Hitachi, not GM, and have mostly given dependable service , but then 30 years ago i was in my 20's, in my prime, today im learning my physical limitations

 

[Gordon]

That should be good,and it certanly is simple.I did notice that there are no signals, but that can be added later on. Will be a simple add on. Like I posted earlier, once I got mine figured out, it has been very dependable. I got a friend who has an '81 also,& his charging system is also kaput. He is not a mechanic, so I am going over on the 8th to help him out. Should be interesting.
He get's all flustered when I show up with mine, saying thing's like " Your killin' me. I wish I was with you." The offer to help has always been there, but he just got hitched, and a new baby, too. No, he did not have to, the baby came later, the usual 9 month's. Then the kid was sick for a little while, so, to say the least, it's complicated. Kid's much better now,& momma say's to 'Git er Done'.

 

[81-650chopper]

I'm running the bare minimum for that complete chopper look. I will post picture as soon as I can. I'm running just a headlight, tail/brake light (on a toggle switch so I could eliminate excesive voltage draw while starting), no blinkers, no starter(kick start only) I am running a battery. Not sure about the batteryless way until I fix my charging problem. Also I like having the extra storage for power seeing as these bikes (from what I understand) don't charge at low rpm's. I hope to have my wiring finished tomorrow so j can start it and finish troubleshooting this issue. As soon as I can fix this issue I will be very happy. I love this bike! I built it from a box of parts all customization and fabrication myself. This is my first build. The xs650 is awesome to ride handles great. It runs like a dream. It took a little carb work but it will always start by the 2nd kick cold and the 1st kick when warm. And man is it fast!!!!! How fast is eveyone elses??? Besides those damn crotch rockets lol I fan hang with or pull away from many street bikes on the road. Plus I love the fact that it's so different it turns everyones head and gets a lot of attention!

 

[Sundie]

Also I like having the extra storage for power seeing as these bikes (from what I understand) don't charge at low rpm's.

You kind of have to define "low rpm's" for that statement to be true. They reach max at 2500 (which is to say, the regulator is fully regulating at that rpm), but give enough to run the bike and all the lights at idle (13.5, if memory serves). Edit: Checking my trusty manual, it states 11 amps at 2000 rpm, and 14.5 +/- .5 volts at 3000 rpm. 11 amps is around 160 watts. Total for bulbs (from the manual) is 150 - that's if you've got the high beam on, in neutral, brake on, and indicating. The taillight alone sucks 23W. Converting that to a 1W LED taillight would give you more than enough power.

Hm. There's a listing for "pilot light" - What's a pilot light??

IMHO, it's actually a better system than a permanent magnet, and the only reason to run permanent magnet is either a: you don't want to run a battery, or b: you're in an aircraft, and raw reliability is more important than efficiency.

Per that last point - a permanent magnet, as RPM goes up, continues to increase voltage, in a more or less linear fashion related to rpm. ie: if it produces 12v at 2500 rpm, it will be producing 24v at 5000 rpm. What happens is that the voltage regulator bleeds off that excess voltage as heat, which essentially is wasting fuel.

In a brushed non-permanent magnet type, the voltage regulator looks at what voltage the engine is putting out, and once it reaches around 14.5, starts lowering the voltage to the brushes - essentially making a weaker magnet, or magnetic field to be precise. If load goes up on the system (like you turn your headlight on), the regulator feeds more voltage to the brushes, and voltage stays at 14.5. This feedback system ensures that you're not producing more power than you need, and just throwing it away.

As i said though - if you want to run batteryless (or put wings on your bike), permanent magnet is the only way to go.

 

[xstwin]

WOW I don't know where to begin here???? First Gordan say's "the charging system's on these bike's is a weak area"(direct quote). Then Pete chimes in,and then Gordan says this "Pete is correct in saying that there is nothing wrong with these system's(another direct quote). Are u kidding me. Then retired gentlemen assumes I don't pay attention to my bikes and in a condescending tone gives me the punch list on how to service my electrical system. Says he sick of hearing the same old story of how the xs is a weak charging system bbbuuutttttt wait!!!!!!!! there's more. How many posts have you been involved with over at 650 rider discussing ways to cut power consumption because of the weak charging system?? not to mention opening up the left side engine case so the rotor doesn't burn up thats reliability??. And I also remember u defending points saying we where stupid to spend money on a pamco or boyer only to find that next month u had bought one and now there great. The reason I don't like the stock charging system is because I have perhaps been unlucky with rotors and for a little more than a rotor I could have a system that puts out more than the stock system,I can start my bike with a dead battery,I don't need a battery to run it,there are no brushes,less wiring,numerous inexpensive replacement parts available if need be.I don't know why anyone would want the stock system over a PMA? just the fact that you can start your bike with a dead battery should be enough of a selling point. And for you guys to think that your the only ones who service or know how to service your bikes, or when to service your bikes is just plain arrogance. Some people think because they don't have it, no one needs it or it's no good. Then when they get one suddenly it's the greatest thing since sliced bread. Sorry to you other people but I had to do that,there's a few people around here who think there the kings of xs and that everyone should hang on their every word and do as they say or its wrong or not true.It only confuses the new people who are trying to learn.

 

[Sundie]

wow. Get off the cross, we need the wood.

 

[xstwin]

Bet you say that to all the guys

 

[Gordon]

81, to go battery-less, you will have to convert the charging system to a Permanent magnet type. The system on these will not produce power by itself, needs a battery to create a 'field' to start the electicity flowing. Also, the battery is needed to absorb the voltage/ amperage from the charging system. Too much without the battery, as I found out by disconecting the battery. Blew the headlite bulb right off the socket.Also fried my regulator assy.
The system's are 'weak' because of 1, their age 2, only put out 16 amps MAX,3, they electric's draw alot from them in stock form, with the headlite, tail lite, and such being on all the time their running. SH, STFU.