Got an open mind? Consider this.

Ecars and bikes might be perfect for running around town, but cost and battery life are the current down sides. A tesla model 3 is what $40k usd? Plus being 500-1000lbs hevier than a corolla it'll go through tires a little faster. The wife's fiesta was $17k and averages 31mpg around town. It'll take a long time to use enough fuel to even out the purchase cost.

Now e motorcycles are a little more even to start. $20k for a zero, lots of bikes outside the starter bike range are getting close to that. If you only ride around town or commute most people would be able to charge at home and never worry about range. Longer trips are where the IC bikes have an advantage. For example my tiger, I put an 8 gallon tank on it and get over 300 miles highway between gas stops, and filling it up takes under 10 minutes.

Now as costs come down and batteries improve the advantages IC has will start to go away. But so far the batteries aren't there yet. Because the batteries dictate range and charge time.

MaxPete said:

That's because the cost of electricity varies so much from one locale to another.
In some places, it is so cheap that nobody talks about it while in other places, it is so expensive that everyone talks about it.
Something like fuel consumption is gallons/litres or fuel economy in miles per gallon or L/100 km is much easier to "translate" from one place to another.

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Very true. But if a home charger needs 30 amp 220 service and takes 6-8 hours to charge I'm sure you would notice a jump in the bill.
It's just nobody talks about the cost to run a e-vehical. Only about how far it can go on a charge.

This is the future gentlemen - like it or not. The United States Zero Emission Vehicle Act takes effect from 2040. There will be no new petrol or diesel driven vehicles. I won't be riding by then but I will surely miss the rumble of a big Harley or the snarl a well tuned XS. Maybe they can fit these things with a sound track - leaves you a bit limp though eh?

If I buy a Toyota used, with a good service record, I can expect about 400,000 miles if I properly maintain it. What if it's a Prius? On the Prius, I'm going to get killed on battery replacement and they have comparatively little resale value. That's a hybrid, so I can drive it anywhere. E-cars are not yet supported by infrastructure.

And another thing. Coal fired electricity is cheap. Are we gaining anything taking a gasoline powered car off and putting a coal fired car on?

jetmechmarty said:

And another thing. Coal fired electricity is cheap. Are we gaining anything taking a gasoline powered car off and putting a coal fired car on?

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Very good question.

Oct 2019.. spent 10 days in China .... electric scooters.. motorcycles... small trucks... very few gas powered units. The problem is.. you can't hear them.. they zip around ... nearly got nailed a few times.. and at night.. most don't have lights... do not cross a dark street at night without LOOK'n ! Also, on a side note.. Motorcycles are not allowed on the freeway in China. ( when I wore my hat, told everyone my name was " Comrade Mike " )

As I say, "like it or not".
Apparently, methane production by the world's livestock causes more ozone damage than the internal combustion motor but, there are few calls to ban cattle and sheep and, we have to do something about global warming - again, like it or not.
Got a hat like that Mike from my last trip to Vietnam. Cool hat but you don't want to wear it around Vets - they can get upset and I respect them too much to alienate them. I was one of the lucky ones who missed the draft call up.
Cheers

Noise? Not a problem! Playing cards in the spokes. What was old is new again. Or...........maybe a trip to the dime store (huh?) for a bag of balloons. Inflate with CO2 (inflation device beneath the mustache) then attach in place of playing cards for a deeper note..............until they expire.......

73TX650Twins said:

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Excellent!!!

David Toll said:

As I say, "like it or not".
Apparently, methane production by the world's livestock causes more ozone damage than the internal combustion motor but, there are few calls to ban cattle and sheep and, we have to do something about global warming - again, like it or not.
Got a hat like that Mike from my last trip to Vietnam. Cool hat but you don't want to wear it around Vets - they can get upset and I respect them too much to alienate them. I was one of the lucky ones who missed the draft call up.
Cheers

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The methane problem is due to large scale farming techniques. The methane problem from cows is bullshit! It’s feedlot cattle eating GMO corn. It’s a poor way to treat animals and it isn’t healthy for us. It’s just cheap. That’s the problem. We’re only going to clean up where economically convenient.

EVs are definitely coming, like it or not (as already stated several times)
Seen any steam trains or horse drawn stage coaches lately?
Global warming IS happening, and it is not looking good for anyone. Like people living in the US gulf states. More hurricanes will come. More unstable and unpredictable weather patterns everywhere. At my house right now, at 70N, there is hardly any snow on the ground. While Madrid, Spain has loads of snow, power outages, etc.
One thing not mentioned much in this thread, is the ability of EVs and hybrids to regenerate energy when braking, slowing down or descending hills. This is one of the reasons EVs generally use less energy per distance than IC vehicles.
Living in a normally cold climate, I do see two major drawbacks to electric cars so far, and that is reduced battery capacity/ reduced charging rates when it gets properly cold in winter, and the other is the heating system. This is now mostly done with heat pumps, but any heat pump loses efficiency when it gets cold. So not that great in -30C.

Back to the eBikes; I test rode the zero lineup a few years ago and found them to be fun. As for being quite, all were more noisy than the BMR and KLR chase bike and leader of the group. I think for me, the enduro styled dual purpose bike would be my commuter if I bought one then. I like its upright position and its range of just over 100 miles. Keep in mind that has been extended now.
I work in a facility that supplies electricity to eVehicles so recharging it at work is not an issue for me.
It took me a short period of time to stop reaching for clutch and gear shifter, but the pick up was quite nice with a twist of the go handle.
I think the cost of purchase is too much then and now. And like what has been mentioned above, motorcycles are not that costly to own.
I see no environmental savings in operating an eBike or eCar. But for those who can calculate a fuel savings and that's there thing, so be it.
Battery replacement is a huge cost but so is engine replacement I hear. However, battery replacement may occur more often.

Jim said:

1900: many people are lamenting the coming demise of the horse as a common means of transportation as the horseless carriage and those confounded motorcicles become more mainstream.
2021: many people are lamenting the coming demise of the internal combustion engine as a common means of transportation as the electric motor becomes more mainstream.
2121: many people are lamenting the coming demise of the electric motor as a common means of transportation as the anti-matter drive becomes more mainstream.
2221: many people are....... add infinitum...

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Yep, this about sums it up. 120 years ago people who spent their days dreaming up flying machines were often considered lunatics.160 years ago people laughed at steam powered iron hulled ships and said they were the fever dream of madmen. Who here wants to cross the Atlantic in a square rigged sloop with no refrigeration or power? Its the march of progress, 150 years from now people will look back on internal combustion as archaic technology. It baffles me that we still have problems convincing a not insignificant percentage of the population that the earth is round...

RustiePyles said:

It baffles me that we still have problems convincing a not insignificant percentage of the population that the earth is round...

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I am certainly no denier. I can easily see what's coming. That doesn't mean I have to like it. I'm sure people in 1850 were able to lead lives just as happily as they do today. Internal combustion engines solved the issue of ankle deep horse poop in the streets of New York, then brought us new issues. Modern technology equals modern problems.

jetmechmarty said:

I am certainly no denier. I can easily see what's coming. That doesn't mean I have to like it. I'm sure people in 1850 were able to lead lives just as happily as they do today. Internal combustion engines solved the issue of ankle deep horse poop in the streets of New York, then brought us new issues. Modern technology equals modern problems.

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Agreed 100%, I don't think any of us are totally immune to nostalgia. Some of us just cling to it a little more fervently than others. If I said I wasn't sad to witness the downfall of petrol power I'd be lying. And I don't mean to imply that any one of these outdated technologies wasn't a major step in the betterment of society as every one of them was a major leap. But if we don't follow every major leap with another than we become stagnant.

73TX650Twins said:

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This is true to a certain degree, unfortunately our infrastructure has yet to catch up with our goals. But its not 100% true, if you look at someplace like Iowa that has 42% of their energy produced by wind, E-vehicles can make a substantial impact. But if you look at other places where Ole King Coal still reigns supreme then E-vehicles can actually increase the overall carbon footprint compared to traditional petrol. It's all comparative.

Amazing how fast a simple MPGe query becomes a rat hole but this seems about the norm;
The Nissan Leaf, a "limited range" all electric "economy class" car
"Re: How much does a Nissan leaf and cost to Operate?
a rough figure is about two cents a mile if your rates are about 12 cents a kWh."
others in that same thread pitched in 2-3 cents a mile.
So lets use a Prius C a stellar fuel mileage, all gasoline powered economy class car as the foil; 50MPG driven with reasonable care.
today's gas hmm $2.50 a gallon so $2.50 /50 = 5 cents a mile or twice the direct fuel cost of the Leaf (remember the rat hole) Your household electric rate is widely variable, does nothing to contribute to road maintenance, though your property taxes do. The cost of gasoline is likely on the way back up to 3-$4.00.
Electric vehicles of all stripes, battery depreciation is a big cost. Leaf quick and dirty; $5,000, with a 100,000 mile life, which is 5 cents a mile, or more than the "fuel cost" something that undoubtedly will become less of an issue over time.Outside of tires, which cost roughly the same on an EV, my prius maintenance costs over 100,000 miles have been down in the weeds. mebbie $1,000? Oil and filters the biggest, 10@ $50, air filters, rear brakes (a Wisconsin rust thing) about it. I recently bought a set of spark plugs, not yet installed at 116,000 miles just because. Thumbnail sez Prius batteries cuz they aint a prime energy source are not a big issue falling somewhat below gas powered car transmissions in MTBF and expense. I expect about 2-300,000 on the ODO before I am thinking car replacement due to looming maint ie battery and engine getting tired body rust starting to be an issue.
But I digress.

Let me know when one of these comes out!

gggGary said:

Amazing how fast a simple MPGe query becomes a rat hole but this seems about the norm;

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Bringing up E-bikes with a bunch vintage bike guys is about like walking down to the Motocross track and demanding that a consensus be made regarding the best 2-stroke oil If there are 50 possibilities you'll get 150 different answers and possibly start a bloody melee