Clutch problems - Pushrod not engaging? HELP!

[brevity]

Long time reader, first time poster. I know y'all know your stuff, so hopefully someone can help me out with this problem I'm having. I tried to search but couldn't find any useful results for this specific problem.

I've got an '83 xs650 heritage special, and when I got it the left side cover, chain, axle adjusters, etc. was all off. More or less a basket case, though the engine was complete. The problem I'm having is that once I went to put everything back together (i.e., left sidecover) the clutch lever will not actuate the pushrod. I took the sidecover back off to make sure everything was seated properly, and the worm drive has never been off as far as I know. It was still attached to the cover when I got it. The worm drive operates smoothly via the cable with the cover off.

Anyway, I tried to activate the pushrod by hand, and it will not budge. Upon further inspection, it feels like it's butted against something inside the cases... Like it "stops" when you wiggle it. Is there something that could have "dropped" with the clutch that is now blocking the pushrod from pressing in and disengaging the clutch? Transmission seems fine, it will shift through the gears, I just can't get the clutch to work and it all seems to boil down to the pushrod!!!

I really hope I'm not going to have to tear into the engine. If there IS something that went wrong with the clutch assembly, is it possible to fix it with the RH sidecover off, with the engine still in the frame? Or would it be easier to just pull the engine?

Many, many thanks in advance. Any more info needed I'd be glad to provide.

 

[5twins]

You won't be able to move the pushrod by hand. It's pushing against the pressure plate of the clutch that is held down tight against the clutch plates by 6 coil springs. My best guess is you have lost the 5/16" ball bearing that was in the worm gear assembly. It's supposed to stay in place, held in by crimps, but they wear away and the ball can fall out .....

You can compensate for the missing ball by re-adjusting the screw in the worm gear but you really should get a replacement ball if yours is missing.

 

[brevity]

Big thanks for the info 5twins.

There definitely is NOT a ball in the worm gear currently. Makes sense that it would not be in there as this was more or less a basket case. I did try to move the screw that goes through the case into the worm gear (against the pushrod, from the outside) but the rod still wouldn't budge. I'll check into getting a replacement ball... Any tips for where to get one?

Also, is there any way something internally could have become damaged or dislodged by the pushrod being out, or if the previous owner had started the engine with the pushrod out or sidecover off?

 

[Dennis]

I dont believe any damage could have been caused without the ball.
Most likely one of those things that just fell away while cover was off.
May be able to find a ball at the local hardware store.
Take the cover in with you.
At first I thought maybe you lost the rod that the ball pushes on

 

[gggGary]

The 83 has two short push rods and a ball (#24) between them also. The diagram shows a third one at the clutch basket and does not show the one at the ramp assembly, maybe because it's supposed to be part of the assembly?

 

[brevity]

gggGary, I love your signature.

Thanks so much for the help, guys. You put my mind at ease, and once I carefully sat down, pulled the LH side cover on and off about 20 times after trying different things with the worm drive, have concluded that the worm drive itself is shot. It was pretty dinged up and kind of bent, so I think it wasn't even returning fully to relieve tension off of the pushrod itself... I didn't test this theory by seeing if the clutch was disengaged when it was "tight" and the lever wouldn't depress, but I did straighten up the worm gear and got the cable to pull in, activating the pushrod. New worm gear, push rod seals, and ball bearings on the way from mikesXS. Those little bits add up quick, $92 later I should be on the road by week's end.

THANK YOU for all the suggestions and help. Y'all are an awesome bunch.

 

[chunts]

Big thanks for the info 5twins.
Also, is there any way something internally could have become damaged or dislodged by the pushrod being out, or if the previous owner had started the engine with the pushrod out or sidecover off?

if you start the motor with the pushrod out, a bunch of oil will come out of the hole. don't ask me how I know.

 

[Quinn_McLeod]

if you start the motor with the pushrod out, a bunch of oil will come out of the hole. don't ask me how I know.

I JUST did that. I thought the engine was shot. I started the bike after a rebuild (but hadn't installed the left side cover [since I was still installing the chain]) and oil POURED out of that pushrod seal area. There was no pushrod in there. LOL. I felt so dumb.

I'm still a little shocked that that little pushrod and that tiny seal are enough to keep THAT MUCH oil at bay.

I have a question about pushrods though:
There seems to be three different kinds. 1 single pushrod with a ball. 2 two pushrods with a ball or two (maybe three) and 3 a single long pushrod with no ball.

I'm not positive that's correct, but either way - what's the BEST set up for a clutch from you all's experience?

 

[5twins]

There are two rod set-ups. Early models used one long rod. Later models switched to two shorter rods with a ball between them. Most of us prefer the old style long rod. It has several advantages. It wiggles side to side less so wears the pushrod seal and bushing less (or at least more slowly). It also is said to give a bit better "feel" although I'm not sure I notice that too much. The benefits for the seal and bushing are the big plus.

Even though these are metric bikes, 5/16" balls were used in the pushrod assembly. You may be able to find replacements at a good hardware store or a big bag can be had from McMaster-Carr for about $5 .....

http://www.mcmaster.com/#9528k17/=sc1kll

As noted earlier, the 5/16" ball in the worm gear is not shown on the parts drawing, most likely because it is part of the worm and come crimped into it.

 

[Quinn_McLeod]

There are two rod set-ups. Early models used one long rod. Later models switched to two shorter rods with a ball between them. Most of us prefer the old style long rod. It has several advantages. It wiggles side to side less so wears the pushrod seal and bushing less (or at least more slowly). It also is said to give a bit better "feel" although I'm not sure I notice that too much. The benefits for the seal and bushing are the big plus.

Even though these are metric bikes, 5/16" balls were used in the pushrod assembly. You may be able to find replacements at a good hardware store or a big bag can be had from McMaster-Carr for about $5 .....

http://www.mcmaster.com/#9528k17/=sc1kll

As noted earlier, the 5/16" ball in the worm gear is not shown on the parts drawing, most likely because it is part of the worm and come crimped into it.

Excellent post and a good source of information. Thank you! As read before sometime the ball bearing inside the worm gear does become dislodged. Although not ideal, you can still operate the clutch with the ball dislodged as long as it is still in the worm gear. I'm going to double check all that stuff when I get home.

I was a little confused with my project because I have a '78 frame with a basket case engine. Well I was able to get an '81 complete engine for $125 with great compression and only 2,200 miles on it! So since that was such a steal, I went that route rather than rebuild the '78 basket case. As a result, I found myself with two worm gears and a bunch of pushrods and two bearings in a bag and didn't know what I should use for mine (or even if it was all there).

This gives me a better idea of what to be looking for. I believe the bearing is still in my worm gear, although it's hard to tell with all the grease in there. Is there another way to know if it's in there - or should I just clear the grease out to check and then re-grease it?

 

[5twins]

You'll need to clean the grease out and see. It can sometimes still be difficult to tell because the end of the adjuster screw is rounded off like a ball. If you remove the adjuster screw and can see right through the worm, the ball is missing. The assembly still functions just fine if the crimps are worn away that retain the ball, it can just fall out when you remove the cover is all. That's why we stuff it with grease, besides for lubrication purposes.

Be aware that on the two short rods, one is shorter than the other and has a stepped end. The shorter rod with the stepped end is the outer one and that stepped end faces out, fitting into the worm. If you tried to use the two short or two long rods from your collection of parts, the assembly isn't going to go together right.