Engine Design Questions

xs650-4-me

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Curious, IIRC xs650 pistons go up and down together right ? Seems to me there is no other way due to it being a 4-stroke with 'only' 2 cylinders.

Do all 2-cyl 4-stokes makers (Tri Nort etc) follow the same design ? they both go up/dn together ?

How about a 4cyl 4-stroke ? Do 2 go up and 2 go down in all designs ?
Would they alternate inside and outside or 2-odd and 2-even ? Seems like inside and outside pairs would balance the best.



What about 3-cyl 4-stroke ? Seems like it wouldn't balance all that well.

2 strokes are easy to figure out.
 
No, 360° twins are not the only option.

In fact "re-phasing" the XS into a 270° engine is very popular.

There are also 180° twins. I think the old Honda 350/360 twin was a 180° engine with a counterbalancer, but don't quote me on that.

There's an entire science dedicated to harmonics and balancing 2 cylinder engines.
 
As to the 3 holer, my FJ-09 is a cross-plane 3 and compared to a twin, it's smooth as silk.

And scary fast for an old fart like me...
 
Yes, I recall the rephasing idea. Does the rephase help at all ? If so, why don't the manufacturers do it ?

Woudl a 180 twin need a balancer ? Seems like it woudl be good for each piston to be going the opposite direction at all times.

Does the Suzuki T500 go up/dn or up/up ? Ie, 180 or 360 ? Seems like that woudl be a 180 twin, as it's a 2 stroke.

I think the old Yankee 500's 2-stroke were 360 degree weren't they ?
 
Not sure I know what cross-plane means. 3cyl 4 stroke right ? I wonder how the cyl's are timed. Offset ?
 
Does the rephase help at all ? If so, why don't the manufacturers do it ?

They do it now. All the new Yamaha twins, Triumph’s have 270* phasing of the crank throws now. Triumph only had it on their Scrambler previously.
 
Downeaster is correct - the smaller Hondas were 180 deg. twins with one up and one down - but I don’t think that the 1960s-70s CB200-350-360 series engines had counterbalancers.

BTW - the proper terminology for the type of engine used in our XS650s is a four-stroke cycle engine. This means that each complete engine cycle consists of four strokes of the piston:
- a downward stroke to draw in a new charge of air & fuel;
- an upward stroke to compress it;
- a downward stroke when the mixture combusts and provides torque to the crankshaft;
- a final upward stroke to expel the exhaust gases out through the mufflers.
Obviously there is a lot of valve opening/closing action and ignition stuff going on in the background to make everything work properly. Thus, a 4-stroke cycle engine only gets one power stroke per engine cycle.

Two stroke engines are a whole different ballgame as they get power out of each downward stroke of the pistons (i.e. two piston strokes per power cycle - two-stroke cycle engines):
- an upward stroke to compress the mixture and,
- a downward stroke to combust and burn it AND draw in a new mixture charge (sort of magic eh?) which provides torque to the crankshaft.
So a two cylinder 2-stroker like an RD400 or a Suzuki GT500 are 180 degree engines.

On triples, yup, you are correct, they don’t balance all that well unless you use a balancer shaft and sometimes even a torsional absorber to quell the lumpy torque pulses. Sometimes, re-arranging the crank throws (as in a cross-plane formation) can move the resonances to a different range where they aren’t as apparent.

Vee engines (V12s, V8s, V6s and V4s) have the additional complication that each bank of cylinders adds its effects to those of the other bank - and the magnitude and phasing of the effects depends on the angle between the banks of the vee. There are optimal angles for each engine configuration:
- vee-2 engines work best with a 180 deg. angle (like a BMW boxer engine);
- vee-4 and vee-8 engines work best with a 90 deg. bank angle;
- vee-6 and vee-12 engines work best with a 60 deg. bank angle.

Then of course, there are radial engines, rotary engines (NOT the same thing), Y-block engine’s (Napier Broad Arrow etc.) and H configurations like the Napier Sabre that powered the Hawker Typhoon and Tempest fighters in WW-II (these were among the first genuine 2000 HP airplane engines and they eventually got up to 3500 HP). The Sabre had two crankshafts geared together with each one being driven by two banks of 6 horizontally opposed banks of cylinders - for a total of 24 cylinders (with sleeve valves - no less). It was incredibly complex and it had a lot of theething problems at first, but once Napiers got it sorted out, the darned thing worked great!

The fact is that ALL piston engines have some measure of un-balanced forces or couples (not the same thing) but generally, the more cylinders you use, the less prevalent the out-of-balance effects.
 
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Re. current parallel twin motors with 270* phasing, all are counterbalanced. In a rephased XS650 motor, the harsher vibrations will be moved, but not eliminated. If you're serious about reducing vibration, beam balance rods and pistons and eliminate as much crankshaft runout as you can. If you want a bike with a motor that's as smooth as a modern twin, the simplest and cheapest solution is to buy one.
 
If you want a bike with a motor that's as smooth as a modern twin, the simplest and cheapest solution is to buy one.

ZACKLEY!!

Vibrations in reciprocating piston engines are just another way that nature has of reminding us that there is no free lunch.

Pete
 
Thx, but Iknow how 2 and 4 stroke engines work. I have read that V12's are self-balanced, most/all others (4 stroke) are not. My 3-cyl 2stroke is pretty smooth ! Seems to be pretty ez to balance a 2stroke. Originally I was just wondering if Norton or Triumph worked the same way as the XS, ie, 2up/2dn.

FWIW - Back in the gold ole days, when there were GTP race cars, I used to go to Daytona to watch. IIRC, there were 962's and Jaguar V12's, a Vette or 2 back somewhere. Wanting to get better pics, I walked out in the direction of the backstretch, and found the gate was unmanned. So, I proceeded around turns 1 and 2 which brought me to the end of 2, where there was a 3ft-high guardrail but nothing else. I couldn't/wouldn't stand up, but I could 'pop up' to about 3ft off the ground, over the rail, and take a pretty good pic. What I remember even more, was THE SOUND. Wow. The sound of the 962's was music to the ears. But then when a green Jaguar went by, it was 2x-WOW. I could surely hear the diff...the Jaguar had a LOT of stuff moving - I could hear it pretty clearly. The sound was unique. I think that gate was locked eventually after that race :) What a sound though...
 
- vee-2 engines work best with a 180 deg. angle (like a BMW boxer engine);
The boxer is not a V it is a "flat engine"
Edit: I have a boxer. Don't want to get lumped into the V-Twin crowd. :laugh2:
 
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Well...hmmmmm. Engineers think of it as a vee with a 180 deg. included angle.

You say tomato, I say tomato.

Bugatti W16 - yeah, that one would be challenging to analyze, but someone must have done it. You’d need to combine the effects of four banks of 4 cylinders with the correct phase angles among them. Messy - but doable.

Although, I do know what you mean about the vee-twin crowd - except for my little vee twin.
DC15D4EE-8E72-4C18-AF15-0BF138292763.jpeg


....and there is no such thing as a self-balanced engine - as pointed out by JimD.
 
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Well...hmmmmm. Engineers think of it as a vee with a 180 deg. included angle.

You say tomato, I say tomato.

Although, I do know what you mean about the vee-twin crowd - except for my little vee twin.
View attachment 131804

Damn! I was SO close to getting one of those! It came down to a new SV650 or a 46 year old money pitt.
I chose to go down the rabbit hole! o_O
 
Indeed - and the thing is that despite all the snazzy new hardware, etc. - even a simple modern bike like the SV is not as nice to ride (for me at least) as the good ol’ XS650.
 
Suzuki built a short-lived Wankel engine bike too; it predated the Hercules IIRC. Pete, if you want your SV to really get down and dance, here's a recipe for you. 1. Race Tech cartridge emulators and straight rate springs. 2. Premium rear shock of your choice. (I used Ohlins on my SV but there's other good stuff out there; hung a YSS single clicker on my GS500E and am emphatically not impressed by it, not much better than OE). 3. Premium tires of your choice. Google Suspension 101 e-book, click on the link, set the sag, and get ready to grin from ear to ear.
 
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