Just stranded. Voltage Regulator Rectifier Smoking :-(

system9

system9

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Recently installed a PAMCO with E-Advance and a TC Bros PMA. THe PMA kit came with a regulator rectifier. Initial test riding went really well, rode it most of the day yesterday, bike was running great.
Today I was about 5 minutes into my ride, had just accelerated to about 60mph (rather quickly) and was cruising at about 55-60. All of a sudden I lost a cylinder. So I immediately turn around to try and make it to a gas station I had just passed. About 1 minute later I lose the other cylinder, I kill the switches and roll into the gas station. My Reg/Rec is smoking/boiling.
Is this known to happen with the TC Bros Reg/Rec?
I have it mounted and wired correctly. None of my fuses have blown*. Initial testing was showing about 12 volts at idle and 13.5 at high rpms.
Now the bike is dead. No electricity at all, so did my battery fry as well? I just walked home and posted this, trying to figure out if there is an easy way to get the bike home, it's only about 1 mile away.
Here is the Reg/Rec http://www.tcbroschoppers.com/replacement-voltage-regulator-rectifier-unit-for-xs650-pma-kit.html
*I later discovered I did blow a fuse. Info below.
 
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When you were riding was the headlight and taillight on? What size (watts) headlight is it? What is the amp/hr rating of your battery?
Do you use kick starting or do you use the starter motor?
Does the rec/reg unit have a good electrical connection to bare metal on the frame?
 
Both headlight and taillight were on. My headlight comes on automatically after I kick start the bike.
Headlight is stock, not sure of the watts as the bike is down the street right now. Its a full size old school style bulb.
Battery is a DURAGM-15L-US
Not sure where the amp/hr rating is located, battery is less than 4 months old.
Kick start only, electric start has been removed.
The ground on the reg/rec is very good. I used a wire brush to expose shiny bare metal, drilled a hole and made my own post just for the reg/reg ground on the frame. Prior testing showed that the ground was good. The ground wire is attached to a ring connector that I crimped on and also soldered. Ring connector goes over post, nut and lock washer holds it down.
 
cheap,chinese made electronics. I have burned through 2 in 4 years now. looking at american made units now, pricey but I think they will last.
s-l500.jpg

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cycle-Electric-Rectifying-Regulator-CE-601-07/272404486852?_trksid=p2047675.c100011.m1850&_trkparms=aid=222007&algo=SIC.MBE&ao=1&asc=39856&meid=cf74a352ac564953bec6aac992b51228&pid=100011&rk=1&rkt=12&sd=182051458645

this type blocks current instead of shunt to ground, less heat generated.
 
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system9.....................you should contact the people that sold the rec/reg unit and ask them why your unit does not have a black wire.
You should install a permanent volt meter on your bike, so that you can monitor the voltage as you drive down the road.

Its very important that your headlight stays on while you are riding. When your bike had a stock alternator, the Safety Relay would turn on the headlight after the alternator starts to generate power. However, you now have a PMA.................so do you have the correct wiring from the PMA to operate the Safety Relay? You say it starts automatically, but you have no way of knowing if it does actually turn on and stay on. If the headlight stays off, the voltage would go very high and the rec/reg would have to try to dissipate a lot of extra heat.
 
My headlight is still connected to the stock safety / reserve headlight unit. It will come on when the bike is kicked over. I connected the old yellow wire to one of the yellow legs of the PMA so that it would trigger the light relay as normal. Everything is stock, except for the PMA, Reg/Rec and PAMCO.
I'm going to take my charged battery back over to the bike and see if I can get it home.
 
Update - Solved?
I took the charged battery back to the bike. Upon closer inspection I discovered I did in fact blow the 20amp fuse between the Reg/Rec and the Positive battery.
So, unfortunately this makes sense. If it blows, then the electricity has nowhere to go? You are basically just pumping the Reg/Rec with all of the PMA Juice? The fuse may have even blown the day before, and since I had a healthy battery, I had no idea anything was wrong.
So...now, how to prevent this from happening again. Because if the fuse blows, and you have a good battery, you will have no idea till either the battery dies, or you smell a burning Reg/Rec. :(
 
Ok, I got the bike home. I put in the new fuse, and the Reg/Rec started smoking! Immediately! The bike is not even running, its not even on.
Double checked the ground on the Reg/Rec, its good. Why would the battery alone cause the Reg/Rec to smoke? The battery is at about 11.8 volts (I just rode it home on battery alone)
I have the same Reg/Rec as the one included in Hugh’s HandBuilt PMA System. His instructions are also identical to those from TC Bros, except for one piece of info regarding the green ground wire. TC Bros simply says to ground the green wire.
Hugh's says to ground it, but also mentions this-
"You can ground directly to the battery (or capacitor) or directly to the chassis. Just make sure you connect a ground from the chassis to the battery (or capacitor) if you go that route"
So if you ground to the frame, you have to also run a jumper wire back to the negative on the battery? Or should the green wire just be connected to the negative on the battery, and not to the frame at all?
regrec_wiring_by_5bodyblade-damvp17.jpg
 
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If the rectifier diodes and the regulator circuitry are fried they can act as a short to ground when a battery is connected. The ignition switch lies between the battery and the ignition. When the ignition is off the circuitry relies on the rectifier diodes to prevent current flow to ground from the battery.
 
Paul Sutton said:
If the rectifier diodes and the regulator circuitry are fried they can act as a short to ground when a battery is connected. The ignition switch lies between the battery and the ignition. When the ignition is off the circuitry relies on the rectifier diodes to prevent current flow to ground from the battery.
Click to expand...
What are your thoughts on grounding the Reg/Rec to the frame as opposed to grounding it directly to the negative terminal on the battery? Any reason I should do one or the other?
 
system9 said:
What are your thoughts on grounding the Reg/Rec to the frame as opposed to grounding it directly to the negative terminal on the battery? Any reason I should do one or the other?
Click to expand...
On cars, trucks and bikes, its normal to have a ground strap connected from the battery negative and going to the frame bare metal. The charging system (rectifier and regulator) also connects its negative wire to the frame. Its not wrong to connect from the rec/reg directly to the battery. Its your choice.

I'd say your rectifier has at least one failed diode, causing a short circuit which blows the fuse.. Current should only be able to flow out of the rectifier unit and not flow into the rectifier unit. Jamesgs4 summed it up quite well......................chinese rec/reg is just crap!
As many on this site know, I'm not a fan of PMAs for these bikes. They tend to have a lot of failures for various reasons, but mainly because they are just poor quality.
Stock type alternators are reliable and well made. Inexpensive nos automotive regulators work very well with stock type alternators and only cost about $35.00.
 
The frustrating thing is the bike ran better than it ever has right before it failed worse than it ever has. I don't want to give up on the PMA, as it seems to be putting out plenty of juice. At this point I need the best Reg/Rec I can get or make. Thanks for the advice.
 
retiredgentleman said:
Stock type alternators are reliable and well made. Inexpensive nos automotive regulators work very well with stock type alternators and only cost about $35.00.
Click to expand...
I would very much like to rely on your knowhow. Could you help me with the parts needed for a reliable Reg/Rec using a PMA and how to wire them?
I just found this on amazon https://www.amazon.com/1000V-Bridge...keywords=Bridge+Rectifier+3+Three+Phase+Diode
I think this would work for the Rectifier, but how to do the regulator? It was previously all in 1 on my 1981.
 
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I have done two PMA conversions. Both times I bought Yamaha parts from a wrecker. The parts are used but are factory quality and to date have proved very reliable. However buying used electrical components can be a gamble if you don't know the wrecker.
Do you know why the fuse blew, if it is a glass type you may get some clues as to why by looking closely at it.
In overload faults the ends of the fuse wire will be melted back and be balled up on the end, short circuits the wire explodes and sprays metal around the inside of the glass.
 
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650Skull said:
PMA - Pamco/E-advance Section in the "Pamco thread" may help some.

Post #5, first paragraph,
Click to expand...
Thanks for the link, full of good info.
In my case the part that failed was part of a kit, so my Reg/Rec was supposedly a matched part.
My PAMCO is doing great, has worked great on both the older charging system and also with the PMA. The achilles heel of this PMA kit seems to be the Reg/Rec quality. I want to replace that with the best option there is.
 
Tread carefully; high voltage can deep six a Pamco. Pete often recommends running the ignition on a (total loss) 12 volt battery completely separate from the PMA while chasing charging problems. Even a small battery will provide spark for quite some time.
 

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