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My lai
- Thread starter baldyboy
- Start date
jd750ace
Front Toward Enemy
Department of Homeland Security - Persons of Interest. I don't disagree with the positon of just following orders, as it pertains to the slaughter of innocents, is deplorable and indefensible.
As far as what's worth fighting for or if freedom is threatened, that's another thread.
I HAVE been to war. I volunteered to serve this nation's intrests, and learned a very valuable trade that serves me to this day. It may not have lasted 5 or six years or more, and you might not have liked it, but the WAR happened, and I was there. When you volunteer, you don't get to pick your fight. As many of your fellow countrymen know, it's the job.
http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/history/canadianforces/factsheets/persiangulf
Ask anyone who has been in any amount of combat how much of it did they need to be exposed to before it changed the way they think forever? It happens at the first round fired at you in anger. Been changed since 1989. Today, I don't believe that anything on this earth is worth fighting over unless it's worth dying over. For that reason, I would never return to military service (too old now anyway)
War is a young man's game for a number of reasons. Among those is the meldable mind. It can be used to great effect for not so great purposes at times.
If you thought more before you jumped and opened your mouth, you wouldn't be going back editing you previous posts to completely change the context.
As far as what's worth fighting for or if freedom is threatened, that's another thread.
I HAVE been to war. I volunteered to serve this nation's intrests, and learned a very valuable trade that serves me to this day. It may not have lasted 5 or six years or more, and you might not have liked it, but the WAR happened, and I was there. When you volunteer, you don't get to pick your fight. As many of your fellow countrymen know, it's the job.
http://www.veterans.gc.ca/eng/history/canadianforces/factsheets/persiangulf
Ask anyone who has been in any amount of combat how much of it did they need to be exposed to before it changed the way they think forever? It happens at the first round fired at you in anger. Been changed since 1989. Today, I don't believe that anything on this earth is worth fighting over unless it's worth dying over. For that reason, I would never return to military service (too old now anyway)
War is a young man's game for a number of reasons. Among those is the meldable mind. It can be used to great effect for not so great purposes at times.
If you thought more before you jumped and opened your mouth, you wouldn't be going back editing you previous posts to completely change the context.
jd750ace
Front Toward Enemy
Wanna hear what my cousin got up to in the Falklands 1982? That'd curl your toes...
Didn't take a year or two of exposure to change the man, did it?
Scrambled
Motorcycle Man
My one and only edit was to add the question "what is the DHS POI ?" . How was that changing anything ? You should be on some list . Got to register crazy people 'cause you can't register guns.
1974jh5
Curmudgeon.
As a US citizen, that was a shameful episode. There were circumstances which did mean that the village needed to be checked out thoroughly and thanks to the VC using kids as sappers the same way the Taliban uses children and women as homicide bombers now the troops were right to be on edge. That still was no excuse for what ultimately happened and IMHO Calley's commanding officer should have gotten nailed for it.
As an atheist who considers himself to be a moral person, I can say first hand that religion is not needed for a person to behave in a moral manner, only to know the difference between right and wrong. There's a lot of shitty people who hide their crappy actions behind a flag, a religion, etc. same as there are a lot who don't.
Scrambled, for a guy who says he wasn't looking for a pissing contest you sure get into a lot of them on this board. I guess the combination of Internet anonymity and free government pot brings out your latent bad assedness.
As an atheist who considers himself to be a moral person, I can say first hand that religion is not needed for a person to behave in a moral manner, only to know the difference between right and wrong. There's a lot of shitty people who hide their crappy actions behind a flag, a religion, etc. same as there are a lot who don't.
Scrambled, for a guy who says he wasn't looking for a pissing contest you sure get into a lot of them on this board. I guess the combination of Internet anonymity and free government pot brings out your latent bad assedness.
Scrambled
Motorcycle Man
You got a point there . I have got into a few pissing matches on here . I never go looking to get into one , but as you can see it is usually with the same nut job and it only gets ugly when he drags politics and religion into the mix. Just to set the record straight , we do not get free weed in Canada and I would say the same things in person as I write on here .
littlebill31
Smells of Raw Fuel
Unfortunately the military does stupid things. Some get noticed, some do not. I am not condoning the My Lai massacre, it was a horrible thing and a huge "black eye". They should have all been sent away for what they did to those people. But, as a combat veteran, let me put into my personal experience.
You may sit there and think that you would not do something like that. But you are probably not 18 yrs old, in combat, in a war that is so hated that you believe you will never come home, so you don't give a god damn what happens and are more worried about when, not if. You have not been put into a position of complete rage and the only thing you know is what is around you, what others tell you, and what you live everyday.
There is a thing called "Fog of war". You know that feeling you get when 5 or 6 things are going on around you that make you mad, you can't hear, people are driving you nuts and won't shut the fuck up, then something breaks? What do you do? I'm sure you just take a deep breath, don't cuss and walk away, right? Ya, right. You probably yell and cuss and throw a wrench. And you are a middle aged adult, working on a bike and yelling at your kids. Not 18 at war.
I've seen men, that I thought were completely calm and level headed, just snap. And I mean snap. I mean you have to physically hold them down so they don't kill the fuck out of others. Of course 5 minutes before that they were talking to their team leader and are now wearing some of him on their face looking at the rag head fuck nut that just shot him. Luckily there are some that can see the bigger picture and can hold back their emotions. Others, well, lets say that snapping of their conscious minds is just too much.
Then you have the followers. Some guy is pissing on a dead body? Hell, that's all piss on the dead body! Young men who have no one to look up to except those tough guys in their platoon. Guys that have snapped long ago. Guys who are actually not that tough, but are just crazy. It's a sad thing to see someone turn to the dark side. You try to tell them who not to befriend, who not to listen too, ect. But it doesn't work. They follow that bad example anyway. Not just in war mind you, but even in the rear. They latch onto a made up image and then follow that image to their ultimate demise.
As for the VC and Taliban (which I met personally), the civilian attire will drive you mad. There is no "red team/blue team". You have no idea who to trust. Look at the Afghan police. No idea who is what or who has what. A crowd of people shouting with you or at you? I don't know, I don't speak the language. Where do we go? What is that? Who his he? Get away from my canteen!!! Contact left, contact left!!!!!!.......
..........Ever thought you would flip out over a kid tossing you a baseball??
See what I mean.
I saw on tv one time, I can't remember what island or battle it was, but in WWII there was a bunch of Marines that were holding an airfield. They started to pull the gold teeth from dead Japs and even had a few candle holders made from skulls due to boredom. The guy on the show was so disgusted with what he did in his youth he was crying, and hard. So there is a lot of this type of behavior and not all noticed. You are dealing with 18 yr olds in war, not adults with life experience.
You may sit there and think that you would not do something like that. But you are probably not 18 yrs old, in combat, in a war that is so hated that you believe you will never come home, so you don't give a god damn what happens and are more worried about when, not if. You have not been put into a position of complete rage and the only thing you know is what is around you, what others tell you, and what you live everyday.
There is a thing called "Fog of war". You know that feeling you get when 5 or 6 things are going on around you that make you mad, you can't hear, people are driving you nuts and won't shut the fuck up, then something breaks? What do you do? I'm sure you just take a deep breath, don't cuss and walk away, right? Ya, right. You probably yell and cuss and throw a wrench. And you are a middle aged adult, working on a bike and yelling at your kids. Not 18 at war.
I've seen men, that I thought were completely calm and level headed, just snap. And I mean snap. I mean you have to physically hold them down so they don't kill the fuck out of others. Of course 5 minutes before that they were talking to their team leader and are now wearing some of him on their face looking at the rag head fuck nut that just shot him. Luckily there are some that can see the bigger picture and can hold back their emotions. Others, well, lets say that snapping of their conscious minds is just too much.
Then you have the followers. Some guy is pissing on a dead body? Hell, that's all piss on the dead body! Young men who have no one to look up to except those tough guys in their platoon. Guys that have snapped long ago. Guys who are actually not that tough, but are just crazy. It's a sad thing to see someone turn to the dark side. You try to tell them who not to befriend, who not to listen too, ect. But it doesn't work. They follow that bad example anyway. Not just in war mind you, but even in the rear. They latch onto a made up image and then follow that image to their ultimate demise.
As for the VC and Taliban (which I met personally), the civilian attire will drive you mad. There is no "red team/blue team". You have no idea who to trust. Look at the Afghan police. No idea who is what or who has what. A crowd of people shouting with you or at you? I don't know, I don't speak the language. Where do we go? What is that? Who his he? Get away from my canteen!!! Contact left, contact left!!!!!!.......
..........Ever thought you would flip out over a kid tossing you a baseball??
See what I mean.
I saw on tv one time, I can't remember what island or battle it was, but in WWII there was a bunch of Marines that were holding an airfield. They started to pull the gold teeth from dead Japs and even had a few candle holders made from skulls due to boredom. The guy on the show was so disgusted with what he did in his youth he was crying, and hard. So there is a lot of this type of behavior and not all noticed. You are dealing with 18 yr olds in war, not adults with life experience.
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1974jh5
Curmudgeon.
I gotta disagree with most of this statement, particularly the bolded part. You do get into quite a few pissing matches and I would say it's you that start them. Must be due to boredom.
Scrambled
Motorcycle Man
^ Looks like you are trying to start one yourself. ^ I guess you get bored too .
baldyboy
XS650 Member
Little bill thanks for a completely open honest appraisal I get red mist as we call it in my job as a copper so you helped put it into perspective judging others by our standards in middle age in a relatively safe and stable environment so I have even more respect for all armed forces. Cheers
1974jh5
Curmudgeon.
Everybody's capable of the red mist, it just needs the right (wrong?) trigger. Someone being in a situation where they are terrified for their own life can lead them to do things they ordinarily would not do, same as a cornered animal will fight back against something much larger than itself. This by no means excuses the My Lai massacre, it only puts it into a somewhat more understandable light.
littlebill31
Smells of Raw Fuel
The human body has, basically, only 2 responses to a situation of panic or terror. Fight or flight. Sometimes both of these cross and cause the brain to be confused also. Sometimes the brain will shut down to protect the body, passing out. Screaming is a response, mostly primal, to warn others and to scare off the invader. Our modern society, and all the "brainiacs", try to curb these primal instincts. Some even say there is no such thing as an instinct and all is a learned response. I disagree with that, but who am I. You can't stop evolution. You can try to change somethings, like yoga to calm yourself, but in the end evolution and instinct win. Try to stop something when a sexy, naked woman rubs against you. I bet you can't.
Anyway, when something happens, especially to a young adult, who knows what their response will be. If they have never been in a certain situation before, such as a fire fight, then even they have no idea what they will do. Or, worse, what they are capable of doing. It is a clinical fact that both teenage girls and teenage boys go through a "brain rewire". Boys will actually not "snap out of it" until they are around 20-21 yrs old. Girls a little earlier. That is why between 15-20 most boys go crazy. Anyone here have any teenage kids? Exactly. Another example is small children. They have no remorse. That comes later. Children cannot look at a homeless man and think, "I feel sorry for him". Why do you think they hit other kids and don't really react when the other child starts crying.
Now back to what I was saying. Ever had a vasovagal response? I bet you have. Like when you see blood or watch someone getting an operation. Yep, cold sweat, fainting, ect. Even standing in formation for a long time will cause this. I've seen grown, strong, tough ass men, just fall out from seeing blood or a needle coming at them. Not to mention combat injuries. When I was shot I was actually conscious and kept going to a safe area. When another Marine came to help me, he was down for the count. They actually thought he was the one injured. You never know how you will respond until you have gone through a certain situation.
So, when we look at all those 18-19yr olds storming the beaches of Normandy (which, by the way, still boggles my mind) or the young country boy slapped into the jungles of Vietnam or the tough kid from the Bronx staring at a target through a scope, we have to consider all the facts of how they will respond. Put several of these brains together and there is a possibility of a serious problem. Schizophrenia manifests around the age or 17-25, same age as all those warriors.
Again, I am not defending the My Lai massacre, but the human body is capable of doing some seriously crazy shit. Nasty, dangerous, twisted, sick shit. And we need to understand that we are human. We can snap at certain situations and have negative responses to these situations. No matter what we do or try, what we were taught or learned, you really don't know what might happen when we see "red". And while seeing "red", if it exacerbated by others seeing red and their responses, it can become a real mess. We will at some point, all see red. It just matters how much red we see.
Anyway, when something happens, especially to a young adult, who knows what their response will be. If they have never been in a certain situation before, such as a fire fight, then even they have no idea what they will do. Or, worse, what they are capable of doing. It is a clinical fact that both teenage girls and teenage boys go through a "brain rewire". Boys will actually not "snap out of it" until they are around 20-21 yrs old. Girls a little earlier. That is why between 15-20 most boys go crazy. Anyone here have any teenage kids? Exactly. Another example is small children. They have no remorse. That comes later. Children cannot look at a homeless man and think, "I feel sorry for him". Why do you think they hit other kids and don't really react when the other child starts crying.
Now back to what I was saying. Ever had a vasovagal response? I bet you have. Like when you see blood or watch someone getting an operation. Yep, cold sweat, fainting, ect. Even standing in formation for a long time will cause this. I've seen grown, strong, tough ass men, just fall out from seeing blood or a needle coming at them. Not to mention combat injuries. When I was shot I was actually conscious and kept going to a safe area. When another Marine came to help me, he was down for the count. They actually thought he was the one injured. You never know how you will respond until you have gone through a certain situation.
So, when we look at all those 18-19yr olds storming the beaches of Normandy (which, by the way, still boggles my mind) or the young country boy slapped into the jungles of Vietnam or the tough kid from the Bronx staring at a target through a scope, we have to consider all the facts of how they will respond. Put several of these brains together and there is a possibility of a serious problem. Schizophrenia manifests around the age or 17-25, same age as all those warriors.
Again, I am not defending the My Lai massacre, but the human body is capable of doing some seriously crazy shit. Nasty, dangerous, twisted, sick shit. And we need to understand that we are human. We can snap at certain situations and have negative responses to these situations. No matter what we do or try, what we were taught or learned, you really don't know what might happen when we see "red". And while seeing "red", if it exacerbated by others seeing red and their responses, it can become a real mess. We will at some point, all see red. It just matters how much red we see.
jd750ace
Front Toward Enemy
Making other humans dead is not what we prefer to be considered "normal" behavior. Also, witnessing the death of other humans by whatever means is not what anyone would want to consider a "normal" event, so why on earth would there be a normalized response?
Often, the followers react as the Alpha types do, so thier response is only as good as the Alpha in the group. if they maintain reasonable order and discipline, generally speaking the rest will as well, but there again, the experiences and teachings that shaped that individual to that point in time all influence the ultimate reaction.
On fight or flight, I would say, since I was already aircrew, then flight was a given. (that's a joke!) As a crew chief on a helicopter, at any given time, yourself, or the door gunner (generally an infantryman) on the other side of the bird is solely responsible for supressing a threat against the aircraft. It weighs in the mind that when you take fire from your side, it's not just you, it's the other 18 people in the aircraft as well that your actions affect. It nearly (but not completely, seen it happen) guarantees that a trained individual of the proper mind set will attempt to respond with supressive fire to a threat. However, I have been on missions where crewmen bent the pushrods on thier trigger linkages, hammering the trigger against the safety, because of the "fog". I myself dispensed an entire belt of 7.62 in a single burst (not the reccomended method) when fired upon, and I'll swear it only lasted about 3 seconds, and it took me 51 minutes to reload the gun from a box to my immediate left. After action, the co-pilot stated he had never seen anyone reload an M-60D that fast, but it sure wasn't fast enough to suit me in the moment, as we were not clear when I ran he gun dry.
My Lai 4 was an inexcusible act in hindsight and foresight, but since none of us were there, we can only make that judgement from the outside.
Often, the followers react as the Alpha types do, so thier response is only as good as the Alpha in the group. if they maintain reasonable order and discipline, generally speaking the rest will as well, but there again, the experiences and teachings that shaped that individual to that point in time all influence the ultimate reaction.
On fight or flight, I would say, since I was already aircrew, then flight was a given. (that's a joke!) As a crew chief on a helicopter, at any given time, yourself, or the door gunner (generally an infantryman) on the other side of the bird is solely responsible for supressing a threat against the aircraft. It weighs in the mind that when you take fire from your side, it's not just you, it's the other 18 people in the aircraft as well that your actions affect. It nearly (but not completely, seen it happen) guarantees that a trained individual of the proper mind set will attempt to respond with supressive fire to a threat. However, I have been on missions where crewmen bent the pushrods on thier trigger linkages, hammering the trigger against the safety, because of the "fog". I myself dispensed an entire belt of 7.62 in a single burst (not the reccomended method) when fired upon, and I'll swear it only lasted about 3 seconds, and it took me 51 minutes to reload the gun from a box to my immediate left. After action, the co-pilot stated he had never seen anyone reload an M-60D that fast, but it sure wasn't fast enough to suit me in the moment, as we were not clear when I ran he gun dry.
My Lai 4 was an inexcusible act in hindsight and foresight, but since none of us were there, we can only make that judgement from the outside.
littlebill31
Smells of Raw Fuel
That's my point. There is no way to know what happened in the minds of those men. Or what happened to them to make them act as they did. We can only guess and relate to our personal experiences. Also trying to understand what the human mind typically goes through during those periods in life can help, somewhat, give a little light.
The answer to most of these questions, from what I witnessed during debriefings of improper actions, was the common, "I wasn't thinking". That is true, they weren't thinking.
The answer to most of these questions, from what I witnessed during debriefings of improper actions, was the common, "I wasn't thinking". That is true, they weren't thinking.
jd750ace
Front Toward Enemy
Reacting and thinking are not always hand in hand for sure. You make great points.
