New Pamco very hard to start but runs fine when started

X

xs jimmy

XS650 Member
Messages
9
Reaction score
0
Points
1
Location
Deansboro, NY
I have replaced the points ignition on my 1972 XS650 with Pamco Kit #14-0905 from Mikes.

Prior to installation, the following items were checked/adjusted:
cam chain tension
valve lash
timing
new spark plugs BP7ES gapped at .028 inch
idle mix adjustment
new battery at 12.66 volts
fuel enrichment operation

Prior to replacement the bike always started on first kick with throttle at idle stops, 1000 rpm, and ran well. Plugs a light tan color with a full ring of soot at the base of the porcelain.
No further adjustments were made prior to Pamco installation.

Installation of Pamco unit was by instructions from Mikes and Pamco website and had no problems. An existing frame ground was used under the original coil mount bracket.
When I finally got the bike started, I timed ignition between the 'F' marks with a strobe that only seemed to work on the right cylinder. The left cylinder would show both timing marks, about 4 degrees apart and would also indicate misses, although I didn't hear signs of missing.

The bike starts extremely hard, a dozen or so kicks, with backfiring through the carbs and occasional kickback on the kick lever. It rarely fires at all on the throttle stops and requires about 1/4 throttle to get it to fire. When it does start, it runs beautifully, with a smoother idle and a noticeable lack of vibration through 4500 rpm. I have double checked timing and have played a little with the idle mix screws with no results. I have about 100 miles on it with no problems except the hard starting.

Have any ideas on my hard starting issue.
I appreciate all your time and expertise as a new member.
Thanks.
 
I forgot to include in my post that this Pamco has the 'e advance' instead of the original advance weights. Is there a way to check if this 'e advance' has reset to 'rest position' after shutdown?
 
xs jimmy,

1. The dual output coil produces a positive voltage on one of the plug wires and a negative on the other. The timing light works best on the negative wire, so that is your right cylinder, apparently. The left cylinder must be the positive wire and that is why you are seeing an erratic strobe.

2. It's important that the idle speed be at or below 1,200 RPM when you set the timing. The tach is sometimes not accurate, so try setting the idle timing at 1,000 RPM as the advance curve is flat from 1,200 down to 200 RPM.

3. The E-Advancer does not produce a spark until one set of magnets has passed the sensor in the correct sequence, so this sometimes means that the engine will not start on the first revolution. This feature serves two purposes. If you turn on the ignition without starting the engine, the coils will be OK because there is no current flowing until those two magnets pass the sensor. The second purpose is to prevent a misfire from out of sequence magnets on initial start up.

4. Make sure that the aluminum advancer substitute cap on the right side is secure on the advance rod. There should be absolutely no movement of the advance rod if the cap is installed properly. The correct procedure is to first install the rotor on the advance rod before inserting the rod into the cam shaft hole on the left side and then install the cap on the right side.
 
Thanks for the quick reply.

The bike was timed at 1000 rpm for idle and I just double checked it.

I checked also for movement of the advance rod and found none.

I removed the 'cap' on the right side, removed the advance rod and rotor, then I installed them again, this time making sure that the rotor on the left was secured to the advance rod before inserting into the cam. All drive pins were aligned and I tightened up the 'cap' on the right side.

It took about 15 good kicks to get her started, with some weak firing and one kickback. When she did start, she idled and ran fine.

Any ideas?
 
I forgot to add it still has the original alternator, brushes good. Along with a VR115 Chrysler voltage regulator and a Radio Shack diode rectifier mounted on a commercial heat sink. The 'e advance' unit is secured to the wire bundle off the rectifier. I have wired a fuse holder with a 7.5 amp fuse inline with the red/white wire in the loom.
 
Actually I am having the same problem with my 72 and have been thinking about what to try. I can kick and kick with no luck. When I use the starter it starts like now and idles and runs very smooth. I was able to kick it easy with the Original Pamco with out the e-advance. I just need to set some time aside to try a few things. Will be watching for additional posts. Thanks in advance Pete.

One thing I can add is I am running BPR8EIX iridium plugs and also 5K caps. At one point I thought Pete had said this was ok in one of the many posts he had made (thanks again Pete) maybe I should try running Std plugs and reduce the resistance in the system. I am running DynaS coils.
 
Last edited:
How big of a gap are you running on those (silly) fancy spark plugs? Some seem to think they can gap their plugs big enough to drive a truck through once they get a better coil but it's just not true. Close the gaps down to about .030" and see what happens. I set mine to about .032" at most.

Honestly, I don't see the need for those fancy expensive plugs. The plain jane BP7ES NGKs work just fine. A 4 pack at the auto parts store will set you back about $10. That's how I buy them, two to use, two for spares.
 
5twins said:
How big of a gap are you running on those (silly) fancy spark plugs? Some seem to think they can gap their plugs big enough to drive a truck through once they get a better coil but it's just not true. Close the gaps down to about .030" and see what happens. I set mine to about .032" at most.

Honestly, I don't see the need for those fancy expensive plugs. The plain jane BP7ES NGKs work just fine. A 4 pack at the auto parts store will set you back about $10. That's how I buy them, two to use, two for spares.
Click to expand...

I'm running .028 on my BP7ES and still having problems. Also, I get kickback when I'm just slowly positioning the kick lever to come up on a compression stroke.
 
I've had kickback doing that too, scared the sh*t out of me. Thing almost broke my foot in half once when over-advanced.

Now I turn the ignition off when looking for the right stroke, convenient little switch on right thumb.

Hope you figure it out...
 
I'm starting to think that the kick start problems are a lack of sincerity and commitment when you kick it. The E-Advancer is very dynamic and it expects that the engine is turning over after it detects the first of the two magnets. If the second magnet does not show up for a long time, and / or the engine is no longer turning over, the spark happens so many milliseconds after the second magnet passes. That explains the kick back.

However, there are two features of the E-Advancer that are there to assist kick starting. One is the fact that the E-Advancer will not fire until two magnets pass the sensor in sequence. This is to ensure that there is not a spark out of sequence. The second feature is that the advance is retarded below 200 RPM.

However, the E-Advancer does expect that once the engine has started to rotate, that it will continue to rotate. No hesitation. So, creeping up on the the compression stroke will fool the E-Advancer into thinking that it's time to fire the spark. You have to commit to the kick. Do not hesitate.

You can also cycle the kill switch between kicks to reset the sequence algorithm.

Or, as Eli Wallach said in "The Good the Bad and The Ugly" "If you are going to shoot, then shoot. No talking" Just kick it with sincerity.
 
Hum?? Maybe. I just picked up some new plugs and looking for some big ass dude to compare kicks. My 5 ft 6" 145lbs frame may not be enough.:laugh:
 

Similar threads

Nicko
Poor idling and starting
Replies
8
Views
266
5twins
5twins
Tony Harrell
First start!!!
Replies
2
Views
376
nj1639
nj1639
M
Idles poorly, surges and dies after 40 minutes of riding
Replies
5
Views
760
Halftwist
Halftwist
H
has compression, spark, and fuel but won't fire / start - cam chain issue?
2
Replies
36
Views
2K
Jan_P
J
C
Diagnosing XS850 no start
Replies
4
Views
711
Jan_P
J
Back
Top