kvanderploeg
The Dutch Terror
I'm still thinking it through. I'll likely mount it in my electrics box, but I'm half tempted to just go kick only.
Kent
Kent
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starter button, generic momentary switch
- Thread starter emzdogz
- Start date
so tonight after messing with kickstand all day more or less....I couldn't help but go ahead and try out the electric starter. Long story short, wires from battery and starter motor connected only by heavy duty momentary switch button does cause the starter motor to turn, but not with any great authority. Battery looked like 12 volts across poles, but Battery Tender does not show green light.
Also tried it with old stock solenoid. Nada. Zilch. I either have it connected wrong or the part is no good.
I don't want to continue doing the direct with starter button only thing. The wires got REAL hot, and I could tell pretty soon they'd probably melt. Thing is, the posts on back of that switch are so small - it's not like you could attach large gauge wire. The place I bought it says can be used without solenoid, but I really can't see how to make that happen without melt-down.
I am wondering though, if the bit of starter motor action I heard was actually spinning the engine. I tried it once with key on, but it just wouldn't crank long enough to make anything happen. Wish I'd pulled the alternator cover to look and see if the engine was actually turning those couple of times I actuated it with the button only (no solenoid) or if the starter motor was just spinning.
arggghhhhh, still lots to do. Really wishing to hear it run now. Tomorrow when I'm not so tired I'll don big boots and try kicking again.
Also tried it with old stock solenoid. Nada. Zilch. I either have it connected wrong or the part is no good.
I don't want to continue doing the direct with starter button only thing. The wires got REAL hot, and I could tell pretty soon they'd probably melt. Thing is, the posts on back of that switch are so small - it's not like you could attach large gauge wire. The place I bought it says can be used without solenoid, but I really can't see how to make that happen without melt-down.
I am wondering though, if the bit of starter motor action I heard was actually spinning the engine. I tried it once with key on, but it just wouldn't crank long enough to make anything happen. Wish I'd pulled the alternator cover to look and see if the engine was actually turning those couple of times I actuated it with the button only (no solenoid) or if the starter motor was just spinning.
arggghhhhh, still lots to do. Really wishing to hear it run now. Tomorrow when I'm not so tired I'll don big boots and try kicking again.
emzdogz;
The leads to the motor getting real hot could mean a couple of things.
Maybe you used too small of a wire gauge.
I got thinking about DC motor theory and you said the starter motor did not crank the engine very fast. DC motors need to come up to full speed quickly in order to generate a "Back EMF"...............the Back EMF reduces the current flow. If your starter motor is partially failing or if the battery is weak, the starter motor will be "stalling" (no back emf produced) and draw a very large current flow.
Battery would have to be load tested to eliminate that possibility.
The starter motor itself could be in bad condition internally.
The leads to the motor getting real hot could mean a couple of things.
Maybe you used too small of a wire gauge.
I got thinking about DC motor theory and you said the starter motor did not crank the engine very fast. DC motors need to come up to full speed quickly in order to generate a "Back EMF"...............the Back EMF reduces the current flow. If your starter motor is partially failing or if the battery is weak, the starter motor will be "stalling" (no back emf produced) and draw a very large current flow.
Battery would have to be load tested to eliminate that possibility.
The starter motor itself could be in bad condition internally.
firstly, thanks again for the input on this. I'm attaching a pic of the connections end of the momentary switch I have. The screws are quite small and the recessed area for a ring end for wires is also quite small. In the pic are the only 2 rings I had which would fit in the recessed areas. So, big rings that could fit onto thick wire wouldn't fit onto the switch.
It makes me wonder how the heck you could use heavier wire. I have heavier wire here (10 g) and would love to use it but I just see no way to connect it to these tiny terminals on the connection end of the switch.
I see my battery is back up to green this morning on the Batt Tender, so today I will try some more things.
Also, can a starter motor go bad just from sitting? I guess I would have thought that's one of those things that could only go bad from "wear". That starter motor used to work real well several years ago, and since has just been sitting. (albeit in not the best weather conditions)
anyway, thank you again.
Em
It makes me wonder how the heck you could use heavier wire. I have heavier wire here (10 g) and would love to use it but I just see no way to connect it to these tiny terminals on the connection end of the switch.
I see my battery is back up to green this morning on the Batt Tender, so today I will try some more things.
Also, can a starter motor go bad just from sitting? I guess I would have thought that's one of those things that could only go bad from "wear". That starter motor used to work real well several years ago, and since has just been sitting. (albeit in not the best weather conditions)
anyway, thank you again.
Em
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I wouldn't use any thing smaller than #8 gauge wire.
Yes the battery needs to be fully charged.
I have tested my starter motor by removing it from the bike and just connecting it to the battery. That is a bit of work. Another way to test the starter motor would be to remove the gear cover that is below the front sprocket. There are 2 gears in there that can be removed. You could then watch the starter motor run with no load.The oil would
have to be drained first.
Yes the battery needs to be fully charged.
I have tested my starter motor by removing it from the bike and just connecting it to the battery. That is a bit of work. Another way to test the starter motor would be to remove the gear cover that is below the front sprocket. There are 2 gears in there that can be removed. You could then watch the starter motor run with no load.The oil would
have to be drained first.
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Last edited:
Got the starter working using solenoid. Batt pos to solenoid, starter cable to solenoid. One solenoid wire to ground (the all black wire) and the other wire on solenoid (black with a faint yellow stripe) attached to one terminal screw of starter button/momentary switch. OTHER wire to that switch has to be (evidently) switched power from key switch. I just used the one I had to going to the headlight for now.
Will have to find a tidier way to add a connection to keyed/switched power.
Cranked it oh maybe 20 times, which drained the battery. 3 times it ALMOST ran. It ran just long enough to make me think it was going to stay running. With enrichener pulled, it ran really smoothly for like 3 seconds, then cut out suddenly.
I hope to get the chance to kill the battery trying again later.
But I'm relieved to learn the starter motor works!
I guess I can't expect this thing to just up and run right away after "sleeping" for so many years.
It would be like waking up Rumplestilskins (<<<spelling is wrong I'm sure) and having him pop up all ready to shower and shave and go to work.
But I have to reiterate, for those few seconds it ran.... it ran smooth.......
Will have to find a tidier way to add a connection to keyed/switched power.
Cranked it oh maybe 20 times, which drained the battery. 3 times it ALMOST ran. It ran just long enough to make me think it was going to stay running. With enrichener pulled, it ran really smoothly for like 3 seconds, then cut out suddenly.
I hope to get the chance to kill the battery trying again later.
But I'm relieved to learn the starter motor works!
I guess I can't expect this thing to just up and run right away after "sleeping" for so many years.
It would be like waking up Rumplestilskins (<<<spelling is wrong I'm sure) and having him pop up all ready to shower and shave and go to work.
But I have to reiterate, for those few seconds it ran.... it ran smooth.......
emzdogz, you're making good progress. Hard starting like that..................check that the fuel source for the choke circuit is clear. Its a very tiny orifice in the bottom of the float bowl................should be able to see light through it, or may need to probe with a needle.
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Gordon
XS650 Junkie
HiYa Aunty!
Makin' some progress aeh? Look's like R.G. got you goin' in the right direction, so. Maybe you could use one of those old Harley starter relay's with the button on the end of the relay. They look kool as hell, esp. chrome, and kinda neet reaching down to push the button, really old skool. So, your gettin' close. Won't be too long now huh. I gotta give you a thumb's up,,,way up!!! You have stuck with this all the way, and does my ol' heart good to see it coming to life. R.G. posted a very good photo of the carb bowl, and he's been very good with the carb thingy's since I've knownn him from the rider site. Actually, all his suggestions' have been 'spot on'. Maybe, when I grow-up (yea, like that's gunna happen), he could be my mentor. No really though, RG has been very good, in fact, when he left the rider site, I was really saddened by that fact. I sent him a PM when I found this site, just glad he's still here for us. RG, my hat is off to you. Emmerz, you too, for your triumphant work on this bike and the other one, too. Guy's, if you didn't know, she's building to totally different bike's at the same time. Toodle's,,, Gordo
Makin' some progress aeh? Look's like R.G. got you goin' in the right direction, so. Maybe you could use one of those old Harley starter relay's with the button on the end of the relay. They look kool as hell, esp. chrome, and kinda neet reaching down to push the button, really old skool. So, your gettin' close. Won't be too long now huh. I gotta give you a thumb's up,,,way up!!! You have stuck with this all the way, and does my ol' heart good to see it coming to life. R.G. posted a very good photo of the carb bowl, and he's been very good with the carb thingy's since I've knownn him from the rider site. Actually, all his suggestions' have been 'spot on'. Maybe, when I grow-up (yea, like that's gunna happen), he could be my mentor. No really though, RG has been very good, in fact, when he left the rider site, I was really saddened by that fact. I sent him a PM when I found this site, just glad he's still here for us. RG, my hat is off to you. Emmerz, you too, for your triumphant work on this bike and the other one, too. Guy's, if you didn't know, she's building to totally different bike's at the same time. Toodle's,,, Gordo
hi Gordo, how's it going?
I second your praise for R.G. - it amazes me how many photos he has to show exactly what to look at, etc. If this forum had a "rep" system, I'm sure Retired Gentleman would have tons of rep.
As for me, I'm just building the one XS.....my Sportster, mostly stock, is a very reliable rider.
And re: the Harley start button, I will look into that, because it does sound like a nice tidy solution. Am re-thinking several things with my wiring, including re-locating key switch back to the under-seat area. Would be so nice to only have 2 coil wires plus one headlight wire to run forward.
I did something that may be a no-no according to some, but I put these clear spark plug boots on - not for bling factor - but just so I can see that I have spark. And I do!
So today, as soon as I walk the dog, my carbs are coming back off (3rd times the charm, right?) and paying very close attention to the photo Ret. Gent. posted.
Thanks again.
I second your praise for R.G. - it amazes me how many photos he has to show exactly what to look at, etc. If this forum had a "rep" system, I'm sure Retired Gentleman would have tons of rep.
As for me, I'm just building the one XS.....my Sportster, mostly stock, is a very reliable rider.
And re: the Harley start button, I will look into that, because it does sound like a nice tidy solution. Am re-thinking several things with my wiring, including re-locating key switch back to the under-seat area. Would be so nice to only have 2 coil wires plus one headlight wire to run forward.
I did something that may be a no-no according to some, but I put these clear spark plug boots on - not for bling factor - but just so I can see that I have spark. And I do!
So today, as soon as I walk the dog, my carbs are coming back off (3rd times the charm, right?) and paying very close attention to the photo Ret. Gent. posted.
Thanks again.
Good morning Gordon and emzdogz (its still morning here in Calgary). Thanks for the kind words, but lets give credit to some guys that I have learned from over the past few years.
I'm all ears when Grizld1 or 5twins are talking about carbs; especially the "carb guide". As for ignition on these bikes, you can't do any better than Pamcopete. jayel always has great posts and helpful with wiring diagrams and general bike knowledge. I learned more than a few tricks from XSjohn, and miss his witty one liners and great advice.
I'm a student of motorcycles in general as well as the XS650, and I try to learn something new everyday.
I'm all ears when Grizld1 or 5twins are talking about carbs; especially the "carb guide". As for ignition on these bikes, you can't do any better than Pamcopete. jayel always has great posts and helpful with wiring diagrams and general bike knowledge. I learned more than a few tricks from XSjohn, and miss his witty one liners and great advice.
I'm a student of motorcycles in general as well as the XS650, and I try to learn something new everyday.
Gordon
XS650 Junkie
Geez RG, You blushing? I agree with you on all those guy's, and Pete's very simple but rugged ignition for these machine's. Yea Aunty, my Iron Head is running great also. Got some pinging problem's, but with compression reading's of 250 psi per cylinder, I am not surprised. And the timing is 10 degrees AFTER tdc. I might have to get a water injection system to quench the cylinder's. But she is running great! I got a feeling I'm gonna get some ticket's, either for speeding, or doin' holeshot's. I just roll the throttle on and the back tire breaks loose! 
I'm almost starting to worry my problem is an ignition issue, rather than fuel delivery. Have the carbs off and will clean them again, paying special attention to idle circuit and enrichener.
It's just weird how it simply "cuts out". Usually with fuel starvation, at least in my experience, the bike conks out after a short while, rather than just shutting down like mine is doing. Runs 3 seconds perfectly smoothly, then just dies as if a kill switch had been implemented.
Anyway, still several things to check.
It's just weird how it simply "cuts out". Usually with fuel starvation, at least in my experience, the bike conks out after a short while, rather than just shutting down like mine is doing. Runs 3 seconds perfectly smoothly, then just dies as if a kill switch had been implemented.
Anyway, still several things to check.
