Sump Plate, Broken bolt now a major issue

[big_ang]

The previous owner left me a nice gift. I suspect the previous owner snapped a tap in the block and not just a bolt. I've heard of people using bolts that are too long, and when they bottom out the end pops off, but I don't think that happened here because it looks like the hole was drilled clean all the way through. Whatever was stuck was in there really tight and there wasn't enough left to be able to extract it. I drilled as much of it out as I could, but it was super hard. When I tried to tap it, my tap also broke.

The block is also damaged where the sump plate was hitting against the frame/side stand. I don't think the crack will leak, but the bottom of the bike was covered in oil.

I don't know what to do.
- I thought about just filling it in with JB Weld so oil doesn't come out and using one less bolt. This is the easiest option.
- The other option would be to put the bike on its side and drill a really big hole and then tap it again, to say M12. Then when I have a big bolt in with red locktight I can cut the head off and grind it flush. Then I can drill the hole and tap it for the M6x1 bolt in the right position.

What should I do?

Thanks,
Angelo

 

[grepper]

Had a similar problem once... It really sucks. I had a welder/machinist extract it by tacking a nut to the end, then was able to back it out. If there is enough meat there to do your M12 bolt idea, then go for it. For mine I had messed things up so bad, that wouldn't have worked. What I did is fill the hole with JB Weld, then drilled and tapped the JB Weld. Smoothed it off, then when mounting my engine cover, gave that bolt very little torque. It’s still holding, but sweating a little oil.

 

[FB71]

It might be a broken screw extractor in there. Very hard metal. If you can remove it, you can get threaded inserts to reduce it back down to the proper size (or close). Look for Time-serts or Keen-serts. McMaster-Carr carries them; www.mcmaster.com

Just noticed McMaster doesn't list them by their brand names. You're looking for locking threaded inserts.

 

[ippytattoo]

Correct me if I am wrong but am I seeing a cracked and bent area right where the corner of the sump plate goes? You may more issues than the broken tap, it may not seal up properly. Hell that may be why the PO tried to tap that hole.

 

[gggGary]

I believe the OP told us that's his broken off tap we are looking at. Do you have a good flat cover? I think yeah get the case super clean with solvent, then smear on the JB weld, use wax paper and lightly install the cover, let the JB weld set, remove the cover and file or sand away any extra WB weld. Replace cover and gasket with maybe hylomar or yamabond on the engine side of the gasket grease on the cover side. Leave the gasket on the case when doing filter cleaning. I'd probably try it less that one bolt. Resist the temptation to over tighten any other bolts! It sure does suck to break off a tap.

 

[big_ang]

Correct me if I am wrong but am I seeing a cracked and bent area right where the corner of the sump plate goes?

Yes, but the sump plate is also bent, so it should be the same shape and should hold oil. The block cracked because the engine/sump plate are hitting the frame. It's a big crack, but it's under the gasket. I don't know if in the future the crack will get bigger, and I don't really know how strong that area needs to be. I was going to file the sump plate down about 1/8" to make room so it doesn't hit the frame, but I don't know if the plate will be too weak or if the bottom end needs to be solid. I don't have a gasket (out of stock) and was going to use "the right stuff gasket maker".

Should I use the JB Weld putty that you knead, or the liquid epoxy that you mix together?

Should I order a cork gasket instead of using "the right stuff gasket maker"?
Or would it be better to make my own paper gasket?

I think I'm going to try the JB Weld fix and hope for the best...

 

[jd750ace]

You have some form of grave misfortune at work there, since the sump plate contacts the frame. I just pulled mine Saturday for the first time, and there is no contact, not even close. Is the frame tube bent?
On the subject of your problem, check McMaster Carr for Tap Extractors. They are made in 3 flute and 4 flute designs in 4 or 5 different sizes. From what I can see you need a 3 flute extractor to try to get that thing out. Right now you have all the time in the world to try to get it right. A broken tap does not succumb to drilling. It has to be ground away with a tungsten carbide tool, which unfortunately is both fragile and expensive. At least you are not defeated yet. My direction would be to try to get it out so you can use the location, and get a flat sump plate and mold the depression with JB weld as Gary suggested.
What you are looking at is unfortunately what I get from folks a lot of times. They go after something they probably should not mess with, with the best of intentions at heart, then when it goes totally FUBAR, they come and get me to bail it out.
Once you get that taken care of, take a hard look at why the sump plate and the frame are meeting each other. That is a serious concern, IMO.
$0.02

 

[gggGary]

I agree with that much of a prong to the lower engine everything about that bike is suspect as far as straight not fractured etc. Maybe everything else is fine but it's a heads up to be looking closely. I think lesser sump/frame interference in that area is fairly common. Repeated flopping it on the side stand or perhaps kick starting while on the side stand probably does it. Or a low side drop.... If the sump is just "tight to the frame" I admit I will take a big ole chunk of hardwood and a maul and convince the frame/side stand back away from the sump a bit with a few good smacks.

I think the sump bolt holes are closed at the back aren't they? Good chance someone bottomed their tap and that's what broke it.

 

[jd750ace]

Mine is close, but I was able to pop the plate down about 1/8" and shift it right to clear the kickstand bracket. I did remove the kickstand, as much to get it out of my face as anything!
IIRC all of the sump bolt holes are indeed closed castings.

 

[big_ang]

Yes, all of the sump bolt holes are closed castings. In my case, it looked like the PO drilled out a broken bolt all the way through the block then broke his tap (or another bolt) and left it at that. I'm guessing that when I drilled it out and tried to tap the PO's remaining tap, my tap broke. I was in shock, I never broke a tap before, but then again I don't think I ever tried to tap hardened steel. Lesson learned, slow and steady and be super extra careful not break taps!

I know the proper fix would be to drill it out even larger into fresh aluminum, then use a threaded insert. I really hate doing things half-assed, but in my case, I wanted to hear the engine run first. I saved the bike from the scrap heap and am regretting it. I think once I get it running, or at least back together, I'll probably sell it. I really need the room for my other project.
Well, I'm leaving work now and will be heading straight into the garage to work on it. I'll let you all know how it goes tomorrow...

 

[big_ang]

I didn't have any success trying to extract the broken tap. I don't think I have any choice but to leave that bolt out and fill in the hole with jb weld. I'm going to sleep on it and work on it tomorrow.

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[Dusty]

Take the engine to a machine shop. They might be able to set it up in a mill,and cut that tap out with a cabide cutter. I have cut hudreds of broken taps out of dies. It can be done but it will be a couple hours of work.

 

[big_ang]

I was finally able to get the tap out. I used my rotary tool and about 4 or 5 aluminum oxide grinding stones. It took me about 2 nights after work, so maybe about 4-6 hours. I also purchased a right angle drill adapter and used that to drill a nice round hole of the proper size so I could re-tap it larger. I tapped it to M10 and covered the bolt in JB Weld, which is cured by now. I just need to cut the bolt flush.
I'm undecided if I should:
1) mark the bolt, take it out, cut it, put a grove in it, then screw it back in using a flat head screw driver. If I take it out, I can cover the bolt with Teflon tape to make sure it doesn't leak.
2) leave the bolt in, use a rotary tool cut off wheel to cut it down, then grind it flush to the block.

Once it's flush to the block, I will put the sump plate back on to use as a guide to drill a new hole for the M6x1 bolt.
Or, maybe just leave the bolt out...

 

[resto]

Another option you may want to consider is to put the bolt into the new tapped hole, but leave it long enough (after cutting) to act as a stud. You could then attach the sump plate (for that hole position) with a nut on that stud.

Couple of wild cards with that solution though:
1) will the new stud allow the sump plate to be maneuvered into position ?
2) can the bolt be sealed and secured good enough so as not to turn when you are tightening the nut? Does anyone know if red Loktite will hold back the engine oil?

resto

 

[big_ang]

Another option you may want to consider is to put the bolt into the new tapped hole, but leave it long enough (after cutting) to act as a stud. You could then attach the sump plate (for that hole position) with a nut on that stud.
Couple of wild cards with that solution though:
1) will the new stud allow the sump plate to be maneuvered into position ?
2) can the bolt be sealed and secured good enough so as not to turn when you are tightening the nut? Does anyone know if red Loktite will hold back the engine oil?

I thought about that, but a stud won't work because I wouldn't be able to get the sump plate on.

My first instinct was to use red Loktite. The biggest concern I have is if drilling, taping, and tightening the new M6x1 bolt will turn the M10 bolt. I wouldn't know if the M10 turns because once the sump plate is on, I won't be able to see it.

I think I might be able to drill into and tap the inside of the M10 bolt on a bench, thats why I was thinking of removing it. The threaded insert idea will not work because the M6 is not exactly in the middle of the new hole.

 

[gggGary]

You might get some aluminum rod, lightly thread the outside to M10 (or get lucky and find an aluminum m10 bolt of some sort) epoxy and insert it, cut it off flush then use the cover to center the m6 hole.

 

[rebel542]

I'd buy a set of cases off ebay. You got a f**k story there.