Why A Bill Of Sale Is Worthless

[ReycleBill]

Somebody restored a motorcycle and had to give it back to the rightful owner 37 years after it was stolen: http://www.spokesman.com/stories/2012/aug/03/stolen-motorcycle-returned-after-37-years/

Use your heads people. I'm sorry my partners and I couldn't have invented http://www.stolenmotorcycle.net a hundred years ago

If you're buying a bike with a bill of sale instead of a clean title remember the following:

The title is the most valuable part. Without a clean title the bike is scrap metal-- pay only for scrap metal.

Do your title application BEFORE you fix up the bike so you don't throw any more money at what might be a money pit.

Check StolenMotorcycle.net and other online databases to see if the VIN is reported stolen. (Sadly, most stolen bikes aren't in the databases yet.) Do this before you buy the bike. If it's stolen then walk away and call the cops.

Remember: If it were really fast, easy and cheap to get a title the seller would already have a title. Most states are cracking down-- even the easy ones.

Take it from someone who has been burned on both ends of the spectrum.

 

[jd750ace]

Great post Bill. Having recently had to get a Bonded title in Texas on a car, I can tell you it cost nearly 400 dollars, took 6 weeks, and was a general pain in the ass. All this on a 700 dollar P.O.S. my wife wanted to flip for a grand. We still managed to make a dollar on the dang thing, but not what was expected for sure. My advise is, even if they have the titile, go to the courthouse at the county clerk's desk and do the paperwork right there. Pain in the ass, yes, but I lost 3 days work on the bonded title, and if it'll only cost ya half a day or so to get a selling party in and make sure you are covered. I'm speaking if private party transfer, of course.

 

[blue900]

wise advice,
bike find shakes can get the best of all of us, Thanks for the reminder

 

[ReycleBill]

My inspiration for helping found Stolenmotorcycle.net came in 2 parts. First, my business partner's Sportster was stolen and never recovered. Then I lost over 7K on a bonded title deal on a dump truck. That was when the 2 of us decided to build the website.

Other registries either charge you, collect e-mail addresses or data mine. We do none of that. We now have a 3rd partner and all 3 of us ride. Both my partners ride Sportsters and are cobbling together XSs from my pile. Someday I hope to cobble together a Sportster from their piles. So far the ad revenue from the site has netted us about $3 a month for 3 years but that's okay 'cause we really only do it 'cause we think it's something that is needed.

As more people learn about StolenMotorcycle.net and start using it then it will become a better tool. Right now not many people know about it so it's not so great. Please spread the word.

Thanks.

 

[Patches]

Well, it was fast, easy, and cheap for me to get two lost titles for bikes I bought in Kansas..... Got my titles in two days..... Cost a whopping 20 bucks....

 

[GreasyC]

You can always get the VIN before you buy and check to make sure it's not stolen. The process for recovering the title on a non-stolen bike varies greatly depending on your location. I did it once and all I had to do was send a registered letter to the last address the DMV had on file for the owner. The letter was returned unopened because he no longer lived there and that's it's, they printed me a new title. Total cost less than $20. Maybe the moral of the story here is keep your contact info up to date at the DMV!

 

[cra-z1]

I bought a RD 350 from a friend who never transferred the title in Wisconsin. Well he lost the title and now I have to locate the last owner from 1988 (which I did) and have him get a replacement title. Then I can get the title from him. Very confusing. The state purges all records after 7 years so I don't know how they would ever know if the paper work is legal or not. Leaves a lot of room for fraud. But to make sure you don't get stuck with someone coming out of the woodwork and claiming the bike you kinda have to do the leg work.

 

[ReycleBill]

Sometimes, even when you do everything right, you get bitten. The truck I lost 7K on was a bonded title AFTER I got the title and had been inspected by DMV 3 times. The truck was on the road, tagged, titled, insured and working when the deputy sheriff from the next county over showed up with a local deputy and the original owner and drove it away. The problem with title bonding is that bonding is an insurance policy you pay for that covers not you but the DMV. Obviously the DMV screwed up but guess what, you cannot sue the state unless it's a class action suit and a single entity cannot file a class action suit.

Everybody from local law enforcement to the DMV was very apologetic and realized that I was the victim (The truck left me in a lot better shape than when I got it.) but nobody returned the money we lost.

So just remember: Even if you get a bonded title that doesn't mean they can't come back later and take it away from you. They did it to me. The system is rigged to protect the state and the bond is how they do it.

 

[jd750ace]

Right on the Bonded Title there Bill. It's in all that stuff they want you to read and sign. The state has a vested intrest in the machine being titled and registered, because it generates revenue. They don't give a squat who does it, but they won't be caught holding the bag if a claim comes up.

 

[DLD1]

I've found, at least here in California, that if the bike has been registered in the last 7 years, you damn sure better have a clear title available, and the CA DMV has a nice website where you can check the fees owed on the vehicle. If it doesn't look good, don't buy. If, on the other hand, the bike has not been registered in the last 7 years, it falls off the books completely, and you can get it all taken care of pretty easily with nothing more than a bill of sale and a statement from the PO saying that it hasn't been operated on the road for over the 7 years, and where it was located.. It is still adviseable to check the VIN for the possibility of being stolen before you buy.

 

[ReycleBill]

I've found, at least here in California, that if the bike has been registered in the last 7 years, you damn sure better have a clear title available, and the CA DMV has a nice website where you can check the fees owed on the vehicle. If it doesn't look good, don't buy. If, on the other hand, the bike has not been registered in the last 7 years, it falls off the books completely, and you can get it all taken care of pretty easily with nothing more than a bill of sale and a statement from the PO saying that it hasn't been operated on the road for over the 7 years, and where it was located.. It is still adviseable to check the VIN for the possibility of being stolen before you buy.

And there in lies the rub. If the person you're buying it from is the rightful owner then it's very easy for that person to get a replacement title but if it turns out to have been stolen you end up losing the bike you just paid for. Like you said, "It is still adviseable to check the VIN for the possibility of being stolen before you buy."

 

[DLD1]

The best overall advice is to make sure the VIN is checked and it's not stolen. Everything else is pretty easy. Good luck to all.

DLD1

 

[Morgue13]

I wouldn't say a bill of sale is "worthless" I've bought bill of sale only bikes before but before money is swaped I always check with the police and DMV of the state its from sucks to lose something you worked hard to restore happens in the car world to with vintage cars, its bummer people are dishonest

 

[ReycleBill]

But all of you NEED to understand that in my instance the VIN was checked by the DMV 3 times and it came back as not being stolen and it still cost me over $7,000.oo. The truck was not reported stolen until AFTER the DMV had already screwed up and issued me a title because it was part of a fleet and the owner didn't know it was missing.

The same thing happens with "barn finds" where the owners are out of state and return home months later only to find letters in their mail boxes saying someone else owns their motorcycle. It can and does come back to bite you. Sometimes.

And seriously, I do still deal in some bonded titles. But I treat all bikes without titles as if they were scrap metal and pay accordingly. I have no less than 4 completely disassembled XSs under tarps out back that are waiting on bonded titles but I will get in no rush to put them back together even if and when I get titles. I will give each one of them many months to wait and see what happens before I spend money on them. In the meantime I'll cannibalize the parts for other bikes.

Also, in most states, a Bill of Sale is not recognized as a legal document for motor vehicles. It has no value because anyone can make one up.

Just remember: The title is the most expensive and valuable part and the only part you and I have to ask the STATE to restore. Everything else we can fix.

 

[DLD1]

Leave it to the DMV to screw you over!

 

[ReycleBill]

Leave it to the DMV to screw you over!

Exactly! And you have no protection. The bond you pay for only protects the DMV.

 

[DLD1]

And of course they don't even apologize for their mistake! The IRS is the same way, they can screw up, screw you over, and it's just tough shit! No apology, no recourse. One of the problems with Government at all levels is there are no consequences for them screwing up, except for the people they screw over! Sorry, it's a pet peeve of mine.

DLD1

 

[grizld1]

Great advice, Bill; a bike without a title is a parts bike, and in Illinois it's worth scrap value minus the work it takes to make the scrap look like something other than a vehicle, because Illinois law now requires recycling centers to obtain the title of any scrap vehicle they buy.

But don't blame the DMV. It's a mistake to pay more than parts bike money for a bike with no paper, it's a major mistake to believe a seller who tells you the paper is easy to get, it's a mistake to put parts and work into a bike with no paper, and it's a mistake to hand significant money to a seller who looks like the type who'll disappear after he stiffs you with stolen property. This isn't a new state of affairs; it's been that way as long as I can remember, and I'm old enough to remember how the farmers celebrated on the day dirt was invented. The people at your state DMV didn't make the mistakes, they didn't make the laws, and the ones who deal with you across the counter don't even get to decide on policy for enforcing the laws.

 

[tonyc]

Last month I registered a 1976 xs standard model in California with just a bill of sale. I found out it was possible to register it without a bill of sale; just a longer process. It was really a painless proceedure. Within two weeks I received my title in the mail and it only cost me $59.00.

 

[DLD1]

Last month I registered a 1976 xs standard model in California with just a bill of sale. I found out it was possible to register it without a bill of sale; just a longer process. It was really a painless proceedure. Within two weeks I received my title in the mail and it only cost me $59.00.

The whole key, and really the point of this thread, is that as long as it isn't stolen it's no problem. You just need to verify that it wasn't.

DLD1