Finally made up my mind!

Didn't know where to post this so put it in the lounge, I've been lurking on this forum for a year now, I originally came here to find a front end for my CB500t (I didn't get round to it) but now I think I've come to a decision, I'd like to go XS650!

Had a several questions as a prospective buyer of an early XS-1 - XS-2 maybe you can all help?

1) Handling - is the XS 650 a better handler than it's other Japanese cousins? (My CB500t is not superb) Is it in league with the handling of 60s Brit bikes for example a Triumph Bonnie?

2) Vibration - inevitable with any sort of twin, but especially with parallel twins, is there any way to make the bike comfortable for cruising at 70mph? I was thinking upping the front drive sprocket or reducing the rear one for example?

I know that a Bonnie T120 is highly vibration at lower revs but then smoothes out at cruising and my CB500t is the total opposite getting more violent at higher revs but this is sorted with more teeth on the front sprocket.

3) I've been told the Carbs and electrics are a weak spot, anything else?

Would be much appreciated!

Hey acebars, welcome aboard.

It's been a long time since I've ridden a Trump and my expertise is limited to the 650's solely but here's a couple of observations. Balanced carbs and tires, sprocket ratio of 18/32 or 17/30 and now I wonder if my wife would enjoy the minimum vibes the bike produces.....she loved my Trump 500 in the lower gears back in our youth. HA!

The rear wheel size has an effect. The 16" that came stock on the later Specials doesn't handle the twisties as well as the 18" that came on what we refer to as the Standard. I've both models titled and tagged and can verify the difference.

I stick with the bs34's for the carbs.....just what I'm used to .....fixed needle position.
The electrics- I use the stock TCI which works well enough for me, though one of the first things that I add to the bike is an analogue voltmeter to monitor the charging health.
Others may vary......

Thanks nj, anyone else want to chime in? My main concerns are handling being better than the average jap of the period and as close to the Brits as poss and the vibrations at higher sustained speeds?

I'm on the verge of buying and XS-2 today or tomorrow so would be appreciated!

The XS650 vibrates, but in proper tune, it's not anywhere near as bad as an old Triumph. The carburetors and electrics are not weak as suggested. Neglect it, and you'll have the same trouble as with any motorcycle. Once you sort the carbs and use it once in a while, they are pretty much trouble free.

The only weak spot in the electrics that comes to mind is the charging rotor. They have a tendency to short circuit due to their age and insulation technology of the time. A rewound unit should be good to go from now on.

The XS650 standard has snappier handling than the Special. A skinny tire on an 18" wheel with slightly longer shocks on the Special and they're the same. The Special in stock trim is slightly more stable at high speed than the standard. I ride a Special in the twisties, buck horn bars and all, and it will haul ass through the turns! The later bikes are better for that than the earlier ones. 77 and newer are the best.

I bought my XS650SK 30 years ago, and it has been a trouble free bike for 51,000 miles. The aftermarket support for it is very good and YAMAHA still offers plenty of parts for the later versions.

Thanks for that, I'm after a 71-72 model. Incidentally the one I'm looking at has a vin of S650-205*** I take it that means it's a '73, is there any way to prove the MFD is a '72 so I can get historic dating in the UK?

jetmechmarty summed up these bikes very well.

A lot of these bikes were driven hard and very little maintenance was done. Because they were built well, they have survived over the many years. However, just like any mechanical/electrical device, that's been neglected, they need work to bring them back, from near death, in some cases.

In my seventh year now with my 1978 SE and I find the vibration so small, I don't even notice it anymore. The CV carbs work very well, but you need to inspect/clean and replace worn parts. The stock rotor and stator are still working fine on my bike.

A couple of must do items:
You must go through the wiring harness, and clean/inspect the connectors. The rectifier and regulator are both old and worn out.............replace both with modern components. Replace the tail/brake ligt with LED's.

acebars said:

Thanks for that, I'm after a 71-72 model. Incidentally the one I'm looking at has a vin of S650-205*** I take it that means it's a '73, is there any way to prove the MFD is a '72 so I can get historic dating in the UK?

Click to expand...

The bike you're looking at will have more flex in the frame than the later models. I believe the frames gained over 15 lbs over the years of production. The fork tubes went from 34mm to 35mm with the XS650D (1977). An early bike is still a good runner. In one of those years where you're looking, the swingarm was lengthened. 1974?

Those early bikes have more value to collectors, but finding parts will prove more of a challenge.

1972 XS-2


1973 TX650


1977 XS650D

Hey, acebars. I was a Honda mech during the `70s, worked on many CB500Ts, fine bike, handles well, could ride it anywhere. But given the choice, I'd jump on an XS650 in a New York minute. Can't really explain why, the CB500T seems plain and lifeless compared to the XS650. Like a charismatic cult leader, it soothes and strokes your soul, you feel like the world is your onion, but it demands your faith and attention. The XS's now exist in, what I believe, the widest variation of genres (stock, chop, bob, tracker, ...etc) of any bike, have a tremendous aftermarket parts support network, and this fine forum. Warning: The rabbit hole gets deeper...

Thanks for all the pointers everyone, jetmechmarty I'm after a 71-72 for the historic dating in the UK (this is a must for the project I have in mind), I'm not too concerned with originality and while I don't believe in cutting up old bikes mine will be far from original in parts, e.g. I intend to put a 4LS drum brake on the front.

Is the flex in the older frames a major concern? As soon as I've got the bike and papers in the UK I'll be quite happy to lengthen the swing arm and add the later forks and other mods, do any of these bolt over from the later models?

TwoManyXS1Bs not sure about the CB500t handling too well! It is better than other Japs owing to the rake angle. As for boring, I have heard this but I like it, I think maybe because it's underpowered for its weight, however given enough RPMs it vibrates like a bomb is going to go off (I like this! ).

Going back to the vibrations is there a pattern to the vibrations? For example I pulled this off this forum regarding Norton Commandos:

Yeah, it was a shaker at idle, but above 2500 rpm it was glass smooth.

Click to expand...

I am told also that Bonnies shake at idle up until the middle range then smooth out. My Cb500t is the opposite above it get's violent at the upper RPMs.

What I'm trying to get at is, does the XS650 have a vibration profile throughout it's RPMs?

acebars said:

Is the flex in the older frames a major concern?
Does the XS650 have a vibration profile throughout it's RPMs?

Click to expand...

The flex is unnerving, you feel the potential to push it, but it doesn't settle as solidly as a Bonnie. There are several areas that can be addressed to help tighten it up, varying from simple upgrades (swingarm bushings, steering bearings), to more involved fixes, considered design flaws (front axle design, XS1-XS1B forktube slop, triple trees, swingarm stiffness, ...etc). A lot of this has been addressed in the streettracker and cafe setups. After I tightened mine up (XS1B) and cafe'd it, it had a flickability that relegated the Bonnie to a solid but truck-like feel.

Yes, there is a vibration profile, do a forum search "vibration" and you'll find many opinions. This is quite subjective, but I find my stock XS1B very soothing at backroad/ranchroad speeds of 40-50 mph. Isn't this similar to casual English countryside touring? When I chopped/hardtailed my cafe'd XS1B, hopped-up with factory 750 kit, long 1-3/4" TT tuck-under pipes, 18/32 sprockets, left out top motor mounts, I found it very smooth at 70 mph, not a Harley rumble, but a low/throated/muted roar, with so much reserve that it seriously outpulled T-140s of the time, and put Z1s on notice...

Welding a brace above the swingarm pivot stiffens it up pretty well, or so I'm told.

Acebars, You may find this thread interesting:
http://www.dotheton.com/forum/index.php?topic=448.0

Wanted to thank all of you for your pointers, I do like that bike in the thread.

Great so I'm on the hunt for the bike then. Just wondering if later longer swing arms are a bolt on swap with the earlier models and whether or not the rear mudguards do also (to fit the new swing arm).

Did search for vibrations, but didn't find it?

jetmechmarty so that weld bracket fixes the frame flex?

acebars
A little information on early model swingarms. Seems one of the big changes was a widening of the swingarm at the attachment point (pivot) of the frame (after 1973).......along with the use of bronze pivot bushings instead of the original non-metalic (nylon?) ones. Once bronze bushings were installed my '73 TX behaved much better at highway speeds - no more "tailwagging". Don't know what you'd have to do to install a wider swingarm on an early frame? Not even sure it's necessary.............Wesley

In the last photo, we are supposedly looking at an early frame. The swingarm pictured is from a YX600 Radian. To the best of my knowledge, that swingarm is a direct fit to the XS650 frame at the pivot point. I do believe all of the swingarms fit the same in the pivot, including the '73/'74 TX750. The XS-1/XS-2 swingarm is slightly shorter than the later bikes. This should make steering quicker, correct? I'm pretty sure you can install a later swingarm without interference with the rear fender.

The added brace in the photo is one that any XS650 would greatly benefit from. I can't say that it is the cure all, because I have no direct experience with it. The biggest advantage with the early frame is that it is about 15 lbs lighter than the late versions. The builder of the bike in the linked forum is a member here. If you can connect with him, I'm sure he would prove a valuable resource.

acebars, I don't know what you're building, but a lot of later parts will swap over. The early bike has a shorter stem, but you can still swap a late front end on an early bike. As far as vibration goes, there are many variables involved. Is the engine stock? A lot of factors will change the level of vibration, including the level of tune. The early bikes lack the barbs on the manifolds for connecting a manometer. This makes balancing the carburetors more of a challenge than on the late bikes. If you have experience riding something like a 1970 Tiger or Bonneville, the XS650 in proper tune does not suffer as much heavy vibration as they do.

Much of what I'm writing does not come from direct experience, but from spending too much time doing XS650 research on these forums, etc. If you are reading this and know where I am mistaken, please make the necessary correction.

wesleyonoel said:

acebars
A little information on early model swingarms. Seems one of the big changes was a widening of the swingarm at the attachment point (pivot) of the frame (after 1973).......along with the use of bronze pivot bushings instead of the original non-metalic (nylon?) ones. Once bronze bushings were installed my '73 TX behaved much better at highway speeds - no more "tailwagging". Don't know what you'd have to do to install a wider swingarm on an early frame? Not even sure it's necessary.............Wesley

Click to expand...

Just to clarify, no XS650 was delivered with bronze swingarm bushings. The are some kind of fiber and get sloppy with use and age. The bronze bushings are an upgrade. Some of the higher price point motorcycles of the time have needle bearings in the swingarm.

wesleyonoel said:

acebars
A little information on early model swingarms. Seems one of the big changes was a widening of the swingarm at the attachment point (pivot) of the frame (after 1973)...........Don't know what you'd have to do to install a wider swingarm on an early frame? Not even sure it's necessary.............Wesley

Click to expand...

I do believe all of the swingarms fit the same in the pivot, including the '73/'74 TX750. The XS-1/XS-2 swingarm is slightly shorter than the later bikes. This should make steering quicker, correct? I'm pretty sure you can install a later swingarm without interference with the rear fender.

Click to expand...

Ah so which is it? All the swing arms fit all the models or the first 3 years are narrower?

acebars, I don't know what you're building, but a lot of later parts will swap over.

Click to expand...

I'd like to personalise the bike, I like 50-60s styling so things like shrouded shocks will be mounted and shrouds for the forks made, I'll also change the tank and headlight. I love longer wheelbases I do know this doesn't do wonders for cornering but I like it, hence the swing arm discussion, I'd also like to put my own badge on the tank or something like that. I don't need to modernise the bike into a performance thing but solidifying the ride would be good. Low cafe bars and eventually I'd like to put a 4ls drum on the front.

This is my plan anyway. Now just have to get the bike!

acebars said:

Ah so which is it? All the swing arms fit all the models or the first 3 years are narrower?



I'd like to personalise the bike, I like 50s styling so things like shrouded shocks will be mounted and shrouds for the forks made, I'll also change the tank and headlight. I love longer wheelbases I do know this doesn't do wonders for handling but I like it, hence the swing arm discussion, I'd also like to put my own badge on the tank or something like that. I don't need to modernise the bike into a performance thing but solidifying the ride would be good. Eventually I'd like to put a 4ls drum on the front.

This is my plan anyway. Now just have to get the bike!

Click to expand...

I do not believe the swingarms are narrower in the early years. Hopefully someone will verify it, but I'm pretty sure all of the XS650 swingarms are the same width at the pivot point.

If you source a YX600 Radian swingarm, I believe you will be adding a little less than three inches to the wheel base. I don't know the difference in length between the early and late XS650 swingarms. Anyone?

The best I can come up with is that the XS-1 through TX650 have a swingarm that is one inch shorter than the later ones. I can find nothing that says the pivot on the early models is narrower than the rest.

The picture above is my bike (and my long departed 1999 Honda Civic).

It is indeed an early frame - 1972 to be exact. It is a Radian swingarm which I didn't end up using. I modified it - shock mounts on the early frames are narrower than the ones on the Radian swingarm. So we brought the shock mounts inboard a bit and forward to be the same distance from the swingarm pivot as on the stock 1972 swinger. Ended up selling the swingarm but have since procured another Radian arm and will someday swap it in.

Anyhow - I digress. Here's a pic of the stock (short) swingarm, the (now black) Radian arm and another FZR or some such swingarm that had been narrowed etc. to work with the XS.

Oh, and the Radian arm seemed to slip perfectly into the early frame, and I believe it is said to fit the later frames perfectly as well. Logic tells me therefore the swingarm width is identical, as is the pivot bolt and bushing size.

Few more: