1976 Kick Starter: Extra Shim ?? (Continued)

I'd like to continue a thread started by Scott s back in 11/02/2012 regarding the kick start shim.
I have a 1976C XS650 (matching numbers) with 17k miles, and I'm doing a complete resto. Second owner, so I'm not sure who else has been into the engine. I removed the right hand cover to inspect the clutch, and found this "additional" shim/washer (#12 , just below) that is exactly like the one (#10, below) just behind the circlip (#11). BTW, the kickstart works fine on this bike.

At Yamahapartshouse, #10 and #12 (Washer, Plate, 90201-256K6-00) have the same part number.

SO, diagram below is the set up as I found it, but this diagram is for the 1983 model. My set up is supposed to be like the thumbnail diagram, from what I can find on the web. I dont trust my Clymer manual, as they left out the circlip from the diagram, confusing matters.

In the 2012 thread started by Scott s, there was discussion of shimming the kicker to reduce endplay. Perhaps this was being done by someone on my bike?? Any ideas?

Jeff

That's possible. I think the extra shim washer was used on an "as needed" basis on the earlier models. Later models had a redesigned cover that may have required the extra shim washer. My '78 didn't have one. I'm not sure if it ever did or if some P.O. lost it. It needed one because the in-out play on the kick shaft with the cover installed was excessive, in my opinion anyway. I added a washer.

Thanks, 5-Twins.
I'll check the end-play when I get it back together, and see if I need it.

I seem to recall ALWAYS finding that shim washer next right next to the case. I didn't realize there was any controversy or ambiguity regarding it, and I never really took note of it until now. I just opened up a virgin 1972 motor and there it was again. Part # 12 in Jeff's first diagram above, exactly the same as part #10, and I measure it at 1mm thick.
I think I have every single on-line parts diagram that exists, and I couldn't find a picture that shows the extra shim washer like in Jeff's first diagram above anywhere. What I did find are several parts lists like the one below, where they give 3 optional thicknesses for shim washer #6, 0.1mm. 0.3mm and 0.5mm. This would control the play between the gear teeth on the axle and the circlip. Also, note that they spec the quantity of washer #10 as two, but the diagram only shows one.
Of additional interest is the second part list below. Note that they devote two lines to washer #10, the only difference being that the quantity is optional, one or two. So, yeah, I guess some engines got that elusive washer right next to the case, and some didn't, depending on need and/or year.

I began my post above by saying that I found the extra shim washer in a 1972 motor. In the diagram below it is part #20, and the quantity given is two. This leads me to believe that the washer is ALWAYS supposed to be there, at least on the XS1B and XS2, and I recall finding it on every other motor that I have ever opened...

Yes, that is all rather confusing. If it is there, it isn't doubled up under the circlip with the other one, it's on the end of the shaft, on top of the circlip. It's not there to shim all the gears and parts on the shaft retained by the circlip, it's purpose is to shim out any excess in-out movement of the shaft in the case. As I mentioned above, my '78 didn't have one but it needed it. I think this is an easily lost part. I'll bet that many times it clings to the cover when you remove it, then falls off unnoticed and gets lost.

When I took my 81 SH apart I later found the second washer stuck to the seal with oil. This is possibly how they get lost i.e. the right cover gets put in a box or on a bench and at some point the washer drops off.

5twins said:

Yes, that is all rather confusing. If it is there, it isn't doubled up under the circlip with the other one, it's on the end of the shaft, on top of the circlip. It's not there to shim all the gears and parts on the shaft retained by the circlip, it's purpose is to shim out any excess in-out movement of the shaft in the case. As I mentioned above, my '78 didn't have one but it needed it. I think this is an easily lost part. I'll bet that many times it clings to the cover when you remove it, then falls off unnoticed and gets lost.

Click to expand...

Yes, exactly, everything you said, and Paul Sutton too.

I think we've got the raw material for another episode of

Just an FYI. The 1st washer behind the clutch, #18 here, is the same p/n as the kickstart shim.


That means that there could be as many as 3 of those washers on the right side...

Yes, I think that's where I scrounged the one I needed, from a spare clutch assembly.

There is a thread somewhere on this forum where someone found a washer missing in the clutch assembly. They used the extra on the kick start asumming it was there by mistake. Now we know this washer has two functions, a shim and a spare.

I would think due to the friction of the circlip pressing against the alloy casing during the bike being kick started, they added that thin shim to stop cutting into it, how much wear is there with no shim? The next time the casing is off have a look for any circular score marks.