neutral difficult to fin with warm gearbox

marp68

marp68

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When the engine/gerarbox is cold or lukewarm, it's easy to find neutral, both when standing still or driving.

But, after driving for a while and standing still, with engine/gearbox warmed up, it's nearly impossible to find neutral. The lever keep slipping over the neutral, from 2 to 1 or 1 to 2. But when running the bike, for example, during slowing down the bike, it's still easy to find neutral.

Anyone experienced this and have any solution?

M
 
marp -

This is a common issue with these bikes due to differentially expanding case and clutch actuator components. This topic is visited often. Have a look at this thread, which should help you.

TC
 
Thanks for the link. It do indeed seems to be a common problem... And no real solution to it neither... :(

I adjusted the clutch (LH case and handlebar) when the gearbox was cold. Will try doing it when the gearbox is warmed up.

Not only the lever slips over neutral, it also feels harder to even shift/move the lever from 2 and downwards or from 1 and upwards, and that's why it snaps over the neutral.
 
Once again:
Loosen teh cable adjuster at the lever.
pop off teh chrome button cover on teh engine case.
Break loose the nut securing the adjuster screw.
Screw in the adjuster screw firmly until all (or most all) of the cable is taken up at teh lever.
Reloosen teh adjuster screw.
Turn the screw in until it just touches.
Back out only 1/8 turn. You don't want it touching but you want the miniumal amount of clearance.
Secure the lock nut without disrupting the adjustment.
Adjust the lever for 1/8" gap free play.

The clutch should work great for a short while then you do another adjustment.

Tom Graham
 
Mine sucks, too. I've tried about all the "fixes" short of replacing all the plates, which I refuse to do. I can't see replacing perfectly good working plates that measure at the max 3mm thickness in the off chance they will improve something. It's just a $60 to $70 gamble I'm not willing to take.

The problem as I see it is barely enough plate separation. You get just enough for things to work correctly when cold. When it gets hot and you lose some pushrod travel/plate separation, neutral becomes difficult or near impossible to find. I think what we need is to find a different worm gear, possibly from another model bike, that has a different angle to the worm gear "swirl" so it thrusts more with the same amount of lift. And/or an alloy pushrod that will expand at closer to the same rate as the cases. I found a suitable pushrod candidate from an XS500. Unfortunately, it's slightly longer and has a slightly bigger diameter than the 650 rod so it won't work without some modding.
 
5twins said:
The problem as I see it is barely enough plate separation. You get just enough for things to work correctly when cold. When it gets hot and you lose some pushrod travel/plate separation, neutral becomes difficult or near impossible to find. I think what we need is to find a different worm gear, possibly from another model bike, that has a different angle to the worm gear "swirl" so it thrusts more with the same amount of lift. And/or an alloy pushrod that will expand at closer to the same rate as the cases. I found a suitable pushrod candidate from an XS500. Unfortunately, it's slightly longer and has a slightly bigger diameter than the 650 rod so it won't work without some modding.
Click to expand...

I do recall reading about these possible fixes on the old forum... might have been your musings, twins.

Knowing that this issue is pervasive, and essentially a design shortcoming, I often wonder why Yamaha never addressed it over the substantial market life of the XS650?

TC
 
This is my "for what it is worth" that fixed my finding neutral problem.

My hard shifting and finding neutral went away some after I checked the steel plates in my clutch for dishing/warping. I had a couple of plates that were not flat, and the clutch was dragging no matter how much I adjusted it. I replaced the out of spec ones. That helped some, but when I had to do the engine I fixed a bent follower riding on the shift shaft. It is the little round thing about the size of a quarter that is supposed to ride in the end groove on the shift shaft. This part is on the outside of the engine around the kickstarter stuff. You can see it with the side cover off. Mine was bent, and kinda ridding at an angle on the outside of the groove. I pounded the thing flat and reinstalled it ridding squarely in the groove.

Using the directions in the manual, I also checked the shift shaft adjustment. Never knew the adjustment was there, but it checked OK.

Now finding neutral is real easy.
 
Quirks? hows this. KLR650's. The balance chain tensioner device or (doohickey). They break, the springs break, or have zero tension from the factory. This was a problem when it came out in 1987, chains slopping around making noise chewing through guides, more vibration since the counter balancer isn't quite in sync with the piston....Guess what, same motor to this day, just different body work....and guess what NO FIX!!!!. some new bikes, yes 2011 with as low as 5000 miles have been opened to put in the stronger aftermarket piece and spring, and there is no spring at all or zero tension on the factory pieces. My 93's was all bent up and the spring shot....amazing how much quieter it is now and way less vibration on the highway...unreal. Since 87 this has been a problem....good on ya kawasaki.
 
Spokes73, were your steel plates bent to the point that you could see it with the naked eye or did you have to measure them laying on a flat surface with a feeler gauge to find the warp? I thought I checked mine but I'll have to do it again next time I have things apart. That wheel against the shift shaft is interesting, I'll have to inspect that as well.
 
marp68;

I do 2 things which allow me to find neutral most of the time.

1) I added a piece of steel under the spring in the neutral detent. This puts more pressure on the detent.

2) After the engine warms up fully, I re-adjust the clutch lever free play back to the original (cold) free play (I do this while driving). 5twins summed it up very well...............there just isn't enough plate separation, so keep the free play at the lever at a minimum.
 
Tomterrific said:
Once again:
Loosen teh cable adjuster at the lever.
pop off teh chrome button cover on teh engine case.
Break loose the nut securing the adjuster screw.
Screw in the adjuster screw firmly until all (or most all) of the cable is taken up at teh lever.
Reloosen teh adjuster screw.
Turn the screw in until it just touches.
Back out only 1/8 turn. You don't want it touching but you want the miniumal amount of clearance.
Secure the lock nut without disrupting the adjustment.
Adjust the lever for 1/8" gap free play.

The clutch should work great for a short while then you do another adjustment.

Tom Graham
Click to expand...

Yep, that's what i've already done. Works well when cold, both when driving or standing still.

Will now try and adjust the free play after warming up the engine well to see if finding the neutral works better when standing still. And if it also works when the engine is cold again.

Very intresting reading about other possible fixes.

Up until now i've also been shifting to neutral the last couple of meters before stopping completely.

M
 
It worked quite well. Now I could shift rather easily from 2 to neutral when standing still with the gearbox/engine smoking hot. Next ride I'll see if the clutch still works great when cold.
Thanks for input
 
5twins I measured the plates using a piece of 1/4" plate glass (12x12) that I use as a machine surface. I put a plate down on the glass and ran a .002 feeler gauge all the way around. If it slipped under the plate anywhere it was our of spec, and I tossed it. Eyeballing them would not have caught them, they were that close to spec.
 
The Clymer book calls for a max of .008 on the warpage. My Factory books call for the same spec. Done as Spokes describes max of .008 feeler gauge. The flatter the better.
Leo
 
I am strugling with the same clutch drag problem on my 78E. With the cover off and dry assembled plates there seems plenty of movement but when soaked in oil they just cling together and don't seperate. I have tried different grades of oil but still the same. Adjusting hot or cold is about the same. How about oil level, my Haines book says dipstick should not be screwed in to measure. Is this making my level too high?
It's a pain dumping the oil to work on the clutch or can the bike be laid down to do it any easier?
 

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