racerdave
^ Gone not forgotten ^
Derm you put a lot of time into that cush setup and still haven't used it?
-
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Front hub in rear?
- Thread starter AceofSpades
- Start date
Hi Ace,
who am I to tell you not to self-destruct?
Does the megaspoke 16" rear come with a disk brake?
If so, there you go, just bolt her on.
And besides, the 16" rim will take the fatter tire your death-rail will have to have, right?
osteoderm
out of the box
The hub, billet, bearings, fasteners, polyurethane, etc., set me back less than $100. That and a few enjoyable evenings in the shop. So, nothing (so far) too debilitating.
On the other hand: the brake modifications shouldn't be expensive, but will put the bike off the road for as long as they take to design and fabricate. Also, the rim and spokes I'd like to use to complete the wheel are about $350 from Buchanan's...
Plenty of other areas on both these bikes I'd like to spend that money on (if/when I'm able!). It'll all happen when it happens.
2eightcustoms
XS650 Addict
yeah looks like a bit of work , so far i have modded an axle to fit the 21" hd front wheel to a stock yami front end. so i figure the back would not be to hard. Being from an aircraft sheet metal back ground and 25 years in the auto body industry with another 6 as a millwright it comes pretty easy now but in the beginning it was expensive and painful now it it cheap and gratifying
nkymain485
XS650 Enthusiast
osteoderm
out of the box
Last edited:
racerdave
^ Gone not forgotten ^
Check your pm's
I did it was the same I got from another forum. but I dont know if it is any good becuz I sent a message and had no reply. I really dont want to join another forum already on too many and I would rather be building them than talking about building them. At this point I am pretty close to putting a laptop or upgrading to a I-phone just because I am on so many forums. To be honest its much more fun building and fabrication
racerdave
^ Gone not forgotten ^
Another member on this board told me he got a reply from that email addy.
SoyBoySigh
XS650 Member
BUMP! BUMP & A HUMP! Humpity-hump-hump-hump, which from your side of the motel-room wall should sound like "Bumpity-bump-bump-bump"!
I'm hoping to find somebody who'll build a custom cush-drive & rotor-spacer for me. JUST like that - but different.
(((Had problems with my local machinist messing up the Suzuki 4LS hub on my daughter's "KZ440LOL" which stalled the project outright while searching for a replacement shoe-plate on the speedo side - asked for a new nut for the axle, to put the hex on the outside rather than inside of the fork leg of the 39mm CB900F fork ... should've waited for a 37mm or even 35mm specimen of the same thing, as the KZ's fork is 33mm to start with, but it's what I had on hand - long story short, he made a huge fugly imperial measurement nut which wouldn't look out of place on his Terminator-II replica Harley ... ugh .... and cut more material off to fit the new nut than would've been cut off to accomodate the original nut!!! Gave him a pile of stuff to work on, offered to pre-pay a an ample sum, and asked him to wait & speak more as I was going on a trip - heard from him two days later, eager to get paid ... and he'd screwed up every single item which I had laid out, literally did 'em all in exactly the ways which I'd spelled out six ways to Sunday that I'd wanted to AVOID - He'd done good drum skimming for me in the past, for cheap too - But even though he's offered to fix stuff, most of it would require new parts to start with, and I just don't trust that he'd do it right - Paid through the nose to get my damaged parts back, too - Just sayin' - don't anybody lament how much they've spent on stuff that WORKS!)))
*cough*
So I've got 40-spoke original vintage rims ("Super-Akront" 3.50x18" etc, several rims drilled for the Harley pattern, ergo a front sized Japanese 40-spoke hub) so I'm keen to use a 40-spoke hub, obviously - HONDA front hubs, ideally - it's a Honda that I'm working with, though we're really only talking about a stock frame & engine when you get down to the nuts & bolts of what I've done thus far even, stock wheel hubs & rotors would retain a stock look despite the wire-spoke wheel-swap! The '75-'76 CB750F1 SOHC-4 hub is a straight swap which uses the same spacers, and indeed one of the 4.25x18" Akront rims I've got for this build, is drilled for the stock Honda rear hub - But I've got another such rim, identical other than being drilled for the Harley rear hub. I'm thinking this could be, MIGHT be, an opportunity to shave off some rear hub weight, to improve the un-sprung mass & rear suspension compliance etc.
(((((What with the number of people looking to do lightweight disc conversions on CB750's, paired to the Harley-pattern drilled rims which are cheap & ubiquitous - including Super-Moto rims I got in 4.25x17" & 5.00x17" 40-spoke Harley pattern for $39.99ea, but the seller's got 'em for around $150ea now 'cause I opened my big yap & told him to list 'em for Japanese bikes too rather than betting on a Harley market which really doesn't exist - he said he inherited "a warehouse full of 'em" from a failed business and had no idea what to do with 'em - should've bought more while they were cheap....) *COUGH* AND other Japanese bikes which would require more or less the same damn thing with subtle differences? ..... SOMEBODY ought to be selling an Omar's style "FRONT HUB TRICK KIT" for every last model of Japanese Superbike that's left out there to work on! And yeah, that would even include some of the CAST wheel bikes come to think of it - Wire-Spokes for Crotch-Rockets on the one hand, OR possibly something to do with using 3.50x17" front 3-spoke wheels on say ... shaft-drive bikes with skinnier 17" rear wheels, OR smaller models of Crotch-Rockets which had 2.50x16" etc rims - what HAVE you, I'm thinking there should be a business offering a basic kit that they could drill & off-set to work with ANYTHING, really - But at the very least, a version for each of the "Big Four" flagship '70s Superbikes! The narrow XS650 front hub could be quite amenable to say, throwing a SHAFT adapter on the thing, and running it on an XS850 or some such?)))))
Incidentally, I'm ALSO interested in a bolt-up cush-drive "Front-Hub-Trick" for the 5-bolt COMSTAR front wheel, to be rebuilt with the 50% lighter & wider Akront "NERVI" rims (which are VERY hard to find, but they're out there - Check out the rebuilt Akront COMSTAR wheels in 3.0x18" & 6.0x18" on the "Van-Geert CBX" sometime - maybe even read my ranting about how simple it would've been to make that thing ten times better via spoke hub & rotor choices
AND I'm also very interested in a "WELD-UP HUB" wire-spoke conversion for a GL1100 rear hub, just like the wire-spoke conversion on the shaft-drive CB900C-based CHOPPER by one "6pkrunner" on the CB750C.com forums!
AND I'm after either a '77 Canadian/Filipino spec CB750P7 POLICE front hub, which is a wire-spoke 40-hole version of the COMSTAR hub, or could also be thought of as a dual-disc version of the '79-'82 CB750K DOHC-4 single-disc FIVE-bolt rotor-mounting front hubs, or in simpler terms a 5-bolt rotor mounting version of the standard 6-hole Honda SOHC-4 CB750K/CB750F1/CB500/CB550/CB500T/CB450 etc etc & GL1000 Gold-Wing front hubs - There are several fantastic 5-bolt rotors most of which can't just simply be re-drilled, especially the one-piece dished '81-only CB1100RB 296mm front discs, which are basically an embiggened version of the 276mm 5-spoke/10-spoke one-piece rotors from '77-'78 CB750F2 or '78-'80 GL1000, etc etc. They weigh even less than half that of the standard SOHC-4 '69-'78 CB750K0-'K8 9-rivet composite front rotors - which you can ALSO get in a 5-bolt mounting anyhow, from the single front disc off the Comstar-equipped '77-'78 CB750A Hondamatic! SEVERAL very cool front rotors in the 296mm size plus bigger diameter 9-rivet carriers in 276mm discs from CB1100F "Boomerang" front wheels, & versions of GL1100 / GL1200 for pennies on the dollar - which might be rebuilt to an even larger diameter yet seem very much period-correct AND proportional? I'm thinking a 43mm TRAC anti-dive fork from '96+ ST1100-ABS Pan European which came with 316mm discs, looks just like a 39mm GL1100 fork but could be made into a pseudo-replica of the NS500/NSR500/RS500 front end with the big orange "SHOWA" stickers on the legs - you can even get the stickers from the dirt-bike restoration nuts, too......
So YEAH - the "WELD-UP" hub on the rear, is basically a shaft hub spooled down on a lathe, plugged into a drum hub that's been hollowed out side-to-side, and fillet welded - with drilled holes & pins to keep the "chain-line" off-set correct for stock spoke sets etc, but it needn't be TOO concentric 'cause that's what the wire SPOKES are for!
Meanwhile the FRONT version of which, is simply a pair of spoke flanges, possibly cut from plate but the original hubs would've been a similar casting alloy & so would likely weld to one-another a lot better than the new billet/plate material. I suppose a copy of this hub might ALSO be milled from billet, or modified from a Harley aftermarket front hub which is also a 5-bolt type. But the thing about the original CB750P7 wire hub, some rare Unobtainium if ever there WAS such a thing - Just how many bikes DID the Philippines Police forces and Canadian RCMP ever BUY in the first place??? - While stipulating the Comstar wheels be swapped out to the original wire-spoke style of the CB750P Sand-Cast style Police bikes - (((And yet which used the brakes from the '77-'78 CB750F2 Super-Sport, yet on a FORK which seems to be neither a CB750F2 item nor a '75-77 GL1000 nor '78-'80 GL1000 nor '78-'79 CBX or any OTHER type of Honda fork from the period, but rather some sort of hybrid or portmanteau of ALL of these different versions - Which leaves me wondering whether the other CB750P7's from '77-'78 with the COMSTAR wheels, used the same fork???)))
-Sigh.
I'm hoping to find somebody who'll build a custom cush-drive & rotor-spacer for me. JUST like that - but different.
(((Had problems with my local machinist messing up the Suzuki 4LS hub on my daughter's "KZ440LOL" which stalled the project outright while searching for a replacement shoe-plate on the speedo side - asked for a new nut for the axle, to put the hex on the outside rather than inside of the fork leg of the 39mm CB900F fork ... should've waited for a 37mm or even 35mm specimen of the same thing, as the KZ's fork is 33mm to start with, but it's what I had on hand - long story short, he made a huge fugly imperial measurement nut which wouldn't look out of place on his Terminator-II replica Harley ... ugh .... and cut more material off to fit the new nut than would've been cut off to accomodate the original nut!!! Gave him a pile of stuff to work on, offered to pre-pay a an ample sum, and asked him to wait & speak more as I was going on a trip - heard from him two days later, eager to get paid ... and he'd screwed up every single item which I had laid out, literally did 'em all in exactly the ways which I'd spelled out six ways to Sunday that I'd wanted to AVOID - He'd done good drum skimming for me in the past, for cheap too - But even though he's offered to fix stuff, most of it would require new parts to start with, and I just don't trust that he'd do it right - Paid through the nose to get my damaged parts back, too - Just sayin' - don't anybody lament how much they've spent on stuff that WORKS!)))
*cough*
So I've got 40-spoke original vintage rims ("Super-Akront" 3.50x18" etc, several rims drilled for the Harley pattern, ergo a front sized Japanese 40-spoke hub) so I'm keen to use a 40-spoke hub, obviously - HONDA front hubs, ideally - it's a Honda that I'm working with, though we're really only talking about a stock frame & engine when you get down to the nuts & bolts of what I've done thus far even, stock wheel hubs & rotors would retain a stock look despite the wire-spoke wheel-swap! The '75-'76 CB750F1 SOHC-4 hub is a straight swap which uses the same spacers, and indeed one of the 4.25x18" Akront rims I've got for this build, is drilled for the stock Honda rear hub - But I've got another such rim, identical other than being drilled for the Harley rear hub. I'm thinking this could be, MIGHT be, an opportunity to shave off some rear hub weight, to improve the un-sprung mass & rear suspension compliance etc.
(((((What with the number of people looking to do lightweight disc conversions on CB750's, paired to the Harley-pattern drilled rims which are cheap & ubiquitous - including Super-Moto rims I got in 4.25x17" & 5.00x17" 40-spoke Harley pattern for $39.99ea, but the seller's got 'em for around $150ea now 'cause I opened my big yap & told him to list 'em for Japanese bikes too rather than betting on a Harley market which really doesn't exist - he said he inherited "a warehouse full of 'em" from a failed business and had no idea what to do with 'em - should've bought more while they were cheap....) *COUGH* AND other Japanese bikes which would require more or less the same damn thing with subtle differences? ..... SOMEBODY ought to be selling an Omar's style "FRONT HUB TRICK KIT" for every last model of Japanese Superbike that's left out there to work on! And yeah, that would even include some of the CAST wheel bikes come to think of it - Wire-Spokes for Crotch-Rockets on the one hand, OR possibly something to do with using 3.50x17" front 3-spoke wheels on say ... shaft-drive bikes with skinnier 17" rear wheels, OR smaller models of Crotch-Rockets which had 2.50x16" etc rims - what HAVE you, I'm thinking there should be a business offering a basic kit that they could drill & off-set to work with ANYTHING, really - But at the very least, a version for each of the "Big Four" flagship '70s Superbikes! The narrow XS650 front hub could be quite amenable to say, throwing a SHAFT adapter on the thing, and running it on an XS850 or some such?)))))
Incidentally, I'm ALSO interested in a bolt-up cush-drive "Front-Hub-Trick" for the 5-bolt COMSTAR front wheel, to be rebuilt with the 50% lighter & wider Akront "NERVI" rims (which are VERY hard to find, but they're out there - Check out the rebuilt Akront COMSTAR wheels in 3.0x18" & 6.0x18" on the "Van-Geert CBX" sometime - maybe even read my ranting about how simple it would've been to make that thing ten times better via spoke hub & rotor choices
AND I'm also very interested in a "WELD-UP HUB" wire-spoke conversion for a GL1100 rear hub, just like the wire-spoke conversion on the shaft-drive CB900C-based CHOPPER by one "6pkrunner" on the CB750C.com forums!
AND I'm after either a '77 Canadian/Filipino spec CB750P7 POLICE front hub, which is a wire-spoke 40-hole version of the COMSTAR hub, or could also be thought of as a dual-disc version of the '79-'82 CB750K DOHC-4 single-disc FIVE-bolt rotor-mounting front hubs, or in simpler terms a 5-bolt rotor mounting version of the standard 6-hole Honda SOHC-4 CB750K/CB750F1/CB500/CB550/CB500T/CB450 etc etc & GL1000 Gold-Wing front hubs - There are several fantastic 5-bolt rotors most of which can't just simply be re-drilled, especially the one-piece dished '81-only CB1100RB 296mm front discs, which are basically an embiggened version of the 276mm 5-spoke/10-spoke one-piece rotors from '77-'78 CB750F2 or '78-'80 GL1000, etc etc. They weigh even less than half that of the standard SOHC-4 '69-'78 CB750K0-'K8 9-rivet composite front rotors - which you can ALSO get in a 5-bolt mounting anyhow, from the single front disc off the Comstar-equipped '77-'78 CB750A Hondamatic! SEVERAL very cool front rotors in the 296mm size plus bigger diameter 9-rivet carriers in 276mm discs from CB1100F "Boomerang" front wheels, & versions of GL1100 / GL1200 for pennies on the dollar - which might be rebuilt to an even larger diameter yet seem very much period-correct AND proportional? I'm thinking a 43mm TRAC anti-dive fork from '96+ ST1100-ABS Pan European which came with 316mm discs, looks just like a 39mm GL1100 fork but could be made into a pseudo-replica of the NS500/NSR500/RS500 front end with the big orange "SHOWA" stickers on the legs - you can even get the stickers from the dirt-bike restoration nuts, too......
So YEAH - the "WELD-UP" hub on the rear, is basically a shaft hub spooled down on a lathe, plugged into a drum hub that's been hollowed out side-to-side, and fillet welded - with drilled holes & pins to keep the "chain-line" off-set correct for stock spoke sets etc, but it needn't be TOO concentric 'cause that's what the wire SPOKES are for!
Meanwhile the FRONT version of which, is simply a pair of spoke flanges, possibly cut from plate but the original hubs would've been a similar casting alloy & so would likely weld to one-another a lot better than the new billet/plate material. I suppose a copy of this hub might ALSO be milled from billet, or modified from a Harley aftermarket front hub which is also a 5-bolt type. But the thing about the original CB750P7 wire hub, some rare Unobtainium if ever there WAS such a thing - Just how many bikes DID the Philippines Police forces and Canadian RCMP ever BUY in the first place??? - While stipulating the Comstar wheels be swapped out to the original wire-spoke style of the CB750P Sand-Cast style Police bikes - (((And yet which used the brakes from the '77-'78 CB750F2 Super-Sport, yet on a FORK which seems to be neither a CB750F2 item nor a '75-77 GL1000 nor '78-'80 GL1000 nor '78-'79 CBX or any OTHER type of Honda fork from the period, but rather some sort of hybrid or portmanteau of ALL of these different versions - Which leaves me wondering whether the other CB750P7's from '77-'78 with the COMSTAR wheels, used the same fork???)))
-Sigh.
SoyBoySigh
XS650 Member
There are good pics of the bare front hub from the wire-spoke '77-'78 Honda CB750P7 POLICE bike, on CMSNL (Classic Motorcycle Spares, Netherlands) but they don't STOCK the thing anymore. Either way, it's clear to see that this hub has more in common with the YAMAHA front hub than any other period Superbike wire front hub - It's a thin "YO-YO" shape with a thin spindle-spool area in the middle, & tall thin spoke flanges - It only differs in the 5-bolt rotor mountings and the 40-hole spoke count. REGULAR Honda hubs use a full-width shoulder bolt for discs on both sides, except for the DOHC-4 CB750K's single-sided single-disc front hub, which uses short threaded holes through the thin side-wall of the hub - Neither of the 6-bolt hubs not the '69-'76 nor '77-'78 versions, would lend themselves to being re-drilled with a new bolt-hole pattern - the first is hollow & only supports the area immediately around the bolt holes with a very thin side-wall area - the latter has hollows between the bolt holes just like the Yamaha XS650 hub shown in the thread up above. So the CB750P7 Canuck/Filipino hub doesn't just shave weight off the HUB itself on the order of 25%-30% of hub weight, doesn't just shave weight off the discs by offering 50% lighter rotors (I've compared CB900F dished & GL1000 composite rotors in 276mm diameter and THAT was a 50% drop in mass - the 296mm version is probably more like a 55%-60% drop in mass!) But FURTHERMORE, we're talking about getting rid of the six thick & full-width shoulder bolts with nuts & washers, with ten short threaded bolts with locktite - Probably something like a 75% drop in the hardware weight as well! If only the thing were a 36-spoke I'd be able to take THAT weight off as well....
Honestly - in sheer PERFORMANCE terms, the COMSTAR wheels are looking more & more superior to the best wire-spoke wheels out there, but only if they're rebuilt with the Akront "NERVI" rims in superior widths & diameters - using "spokes" off the 18" front wheels from CM400 1/85x18" for the early "Silver" style 5-point wheels, GL1100A 2.5x18" and/or 2.15x18" from later year CM400 or CM400C iirc, or of course the BOOMERANG wheels don't have a 19" front wheel only 18" or 16" - but grab the 2.75x18" from foreign VF500F's rather than the 3.00x18" from CB900F2/CB1100RC/CB1100RD/VF750F/VF1000F/CBX750F etc, 'cause it's got a smaller & lighter HUB in the damn thing - But with ANY of these Comstar wheels, I'm intrigued at the idea of carving up an old crashed bent/cracked damaged CAST wheel, from some later-era Crotch-Rocket etc, 5-spoke or 6-spoke most likely - carved down to the outer assembly-lug dimensions of the COMSTAR hubs - ideally the really compact DRUM rear hubs from CB250N or XBR500 etc etc - to not only replace the RIMS with something wider yet lighter, but further more a hub with a massive weight drop and a smaller rotor mounting & cush-drive diameter etc etc - At which point only the SPOKES from the damn thing would be original - Yet this is what you'd wanna do, if you'd like to see these "original" period-correct wheels return to the RACE-TRACK - For an RCB/RS1000 ENDURANCE-RACER style rebuild, stuff like that!
In terms of weight comparisons on a component-by-component basis, the Comstar wheels have the POTENTIAL to be rebuilt as a far superior wheel-set to ANY version of (PERIOD-CORRECT) wire-spoke wheels - 'Cause about the lightest wire rims out there that'll work with silicone sealing tube-less conversion ('cause they've got the bead-retention ridges) would be the Akront TR - and the "NERVI" rims are an identical cross-sectional profile, with a thin flange of alloy replacing all of your spoke nipples from the wire wheel. BUT - if the earlier "SUPER-AKRONT" rims, which had an even thinner side-wall & a lighter over-all profile yet a deep-drop-center so those nipples are moved further inboard lessening their effect on rolling inertia etc etc - IF some type of hard epoxy/plastic or solder-braze alloy could be added to 'em so they too could be used with a silicone seal for tube-less conversion, well then THAT would be the absolute lightest rear wheel you could ever build - There's one of 'em on eBay right now, just like my earlier version "SUPER-AKRONT" & the "PATENT PENDING AKRONT" or "PAT. PEND. AKRONT" rims found FIRST added onto the early XRTT Harley road racers usually versions with the Honda dual-disc front discs replacing the Fontana 250mm 4LS drum - only this later year rim on eBay is stamped like regular "AKRONT" rims with the profile designation "D" as opposed to "TR" or the heavier "TC" - AND the rim on eBay comes with a BARNES QUICK-CHANGE hub laced into it - Which is to say, other than the later-year stamping on the rim shoulder, that thing would be absolutely correct on an early '70s XRTT road racer! They're asking a fair chunk of change, and the hub doesn't come with the sprocket or rotor mounts, but even so - It's one HECK of a lightweight rear wheel!
Well - I'M gonna throw one together with a DRUM - not a CB750K drum but rather an early 40-spoke KZ400 drum, for the DOHC-4 CB750 "featherweight" I wanna build for my kid - these hubs are probably 40% or 45% lighter than the regular Honda hub, yet retain a full-sized cush-drive unlike the crappy design of CB500/CB550 rear drums - THAT'S a good way to shed weight on a rear brake & hub, by the way - Yeah there are some very tiny rear discs, but there are tiny rear drums too! Some of the more successful SOHC-4 racers are using tiny conical rear drum wheels from the likes of early XL500's & XR500 dirt-bikes from the early '80s - A HUGE weight drop - Could be they're also using drums from mid-to-late '70s precursors to those same bikes, I'm no expert on dirt-bike parts that's for damn sure. Either way, it's about the overall package, including the caliper & mods to the rear-sets. Drums CAN be a fantastic lightweight option, on a rear hub AND a front brake too! I'm of a mind, I'd really rather use a drum wherever I can get away with it!
That being said, while I feel the full 180mm CB750K drum might be a good "fit" to my 985cc "Bol Bomber" or even a bigger DOHC-4 - The CR750 200mm 2LS drums are probably more than sufficient for the CB1100F & CB1100R, it's so damn over-built. But that being said, the drum just doesn't LOOK right, in the wider & flatter-profile 4.25x18" Akront TR rim - Well, I've seen pics of 'em put together with a 5.50x18" wider rim, and that was FUGLY.
-S.
Honestly - in sheer PERFORMANCE terms, the COMSTAR wheels are looking more & more superior to the best wire-spoke wheels out there, but only if they're rebuilt with the Akront "NERVI" rims in superior widths & diameters - using "spokes" off the 18" front wheels from CM400 1/85x18" for the early "Silver" style 5-point wheels, GL1100A 2.5x18" and/or 2.15x18" from later year CM400 or CM400C iirc, or of course the BOOMERANG wheels don't have a 19" front wheel only 18" or 16" - but grab the 2.75x18" from foreign VF500F's rather than the 3.00x18" from CB900F2/CB1100RC/CB1100RD/VF750F/VF1000F/CBX750F etc, 'cause it's got a smaller & lighter HUB in the damn thing - But with ANY of these Comstar wheels, I'm intrigued at the idea of carving up an old crashed bent/cracked damaged CAST wheel, from some later-era Crotch-Rocket etc, 5-spoke or 6-spoke most likely - carved down to the outer assembly-lug dimensions of the COMSTAR hubs - ideally the really compact DRUM rear hubs from CB250N or XBR500 etc etc - to not only replace the RIMS with something wider yet lighter, but further more a hub with a massive weight drop and a smaller rotor mounting & cush-drive diameter etc etc - At which point only the SPOKES from the damn thing would be original - Yet this is what you'd wanna do, if you'd like to see these "original" period-correct wheels return to the RACE-TRACK - For an RCB/RS1000 ENDURANCE-RACER style rebuild, stuff like that!
In terms of weight comparisons on a component-by-component basis, the Comstar wheels have the POTENTIAL to be rebuilt as a far superior wheel-set to ANY version of (PERIOD-CORRECT) wire-spoke wheels - 'Cause about the lightest wire rims out there that'll work with silicone sealing tube-less conversion ('cause they've got the bead-retention ridges) would be the Akront TR - and the "NERVI" rims are an identical cross-sectional profile, with a thin flange of alloy replacing all of your spoke nipples from the wire wheel. BUT - if the earlier "SUPER-AKRONT" rims, which had an even thinner side-wall & a lighter over-all profile yet a deep-drop-center so those nipples are moved further inboard lessening their effect on rolling inertia etc etc - IF some type of hard epoxy/plastic or solder-braze alloy could be added to 'em so they too could be used with a silicone seal for tube-less conversion, well then THAT would be the absolute lightest rear wheel you could ever build - There's one of 'em on eBay right now, just like my earlier version "SUPER-AKRONT" & the "PATENT PENDING AKRONT" or "PAT. PEND. AKRONT" rims found FIRST added onto the early XRTT Harley road racers usually versions with the Honda dual-disc front discs replacing the Fontana 250mm 4LS drum - only this later year rim on eBay is stamped like regular "AKRONT" rims with the profile designation "D" as opposed to "TR" or the heavier "TC" - AND the rim on eBay comes with a BARNES QUICK-CHANGE hub laced into it - Which is to say, other than the later-year stamping on the rim shoulder, that thing would be absolutely correct on an early '70s XRTT road racer! They're asking a fair chunk of change, and the hub doesn't come with the sprocket or rotor mounts, but even so - It's one HECK of a lightweight rear wheel!
Well - I'M gonna throw one together with a DRUM - not a CB750K drum but rather an early 40-spoke KZ400 drum, for the DOHC-4 CB750 "featherweight" I wanna build for my kid - these hubs are probably 40% or 45% lighter than the regular Honda hub, yet retain a full-sized cush-drive unlike the crappy design of CB500/CB550 rear drums - THAT'S a good way to shed weight on a rear brake & hub, by the way - Yeah there are some very tiny rear discs, but there are tiny rear drums too! Some of the more successful SOHC-4 racers are using tiny conical rear drum wheels from the likes of early XL500's & XR500 dirt-bikes from the early '80s - A HUGE weight drop - Could be they're also using drums from mid-to-late '70s precursors to those same bikes, I'm no expert on dirt-bike parts that's for damn sure. Either way, it's about the overall package, including the caliper & mods to the rear-sets. Drums CAN be a fantastic lightweight option, on a rear hub AND a front brake too! I'm of a mind, I'd really rather use a drum wherever I can get away with it!
That being said, while I feel the full 180mm CB750K drum might be a good "fit" to my 985cc "Bol Bomber" or even a bigger DOHC-4 - The CR750 200mm 2LS drums are probably more than sufficient for the CB1100F & CB1100R, it's so damn over-built. But that being said, the drum just doesn't LOOK right, in the wider & flatter-profile 4.25x18" Akront TR rim - Well, I've seen pics of 'em put together with a 5.50x18" wider rim, and that was FUGLY.
-S.
SoyBoySigh
XS650 Member
ANYWAY - for the REAR hub of the type spoken of in this thread thus far - the "FRONT HUB TRICK" wire-spoke rear wheel? I'd like to use a stock cush-drive carved out of another type of rear hub. Could be ANY type of rear hub, when you think about it - But I've got a fire-damaged KZ750B/KZ1000A conical disc hub, which could easily be repaired by replacing the EPOXY which was holding the right-hand-side chromed-steel spoke flange on - Yikes! I'd LIKE to cut the 6-lug cush-drive "pan" off of it, remove the spoke-flange from the perimeter & thin the walls down if possible, thin the whole axial-width of the thing while cutting down the "top-hat" spacer inside the hub, and filing down the lugs of the sprocket-carrier. The KZ750B/KZ1000A has a much lower chain-line off-set inherent to the sprocket-carrier itself, than all of the other KZ units ("coupling assembly" in Kawasaki repair-manual parlance) from the 7-spoke cast/mag wheels come with - There's not all that much to remove from the thing in the first place, so this seems like an ideal sprocket-carrier for this type of cush-drive.
The XS650 rear drums, and the 7-spoke cast wheels on the Special, don't come with a cush, do they? Well, I'M working with an entirely different marque here, I'd like to preserve the larger scale of cush-drive. The thinned down cush-rubbers/dampeners would naturally squish more, having less surface area - but there will be six of 'em rather than the four or five of the stock Comstar wheels on my "CB900K0 Bol Bomber".
If it's still too stiff in the cush, the vintage GUZZI people recommend taking half of the rubbers out, or drilling holes through the damn things. Reproduction rubbers are out there, but probably not for this model specifically - any of the KZ or GS 6-lug rubbers could work though, being that they'll be modified in any case when the thing's cut down thinner -
I've ALSO been intrigued at the thought of using SK8BOARD wheels or the Varethane/Urethane material from 'em, cut to fit of course, in these rear hubs - 'Cause they came in various "DUROMETER" numbers, more or less squish that is to say. And for the little ROUND ones that'll be suitable for a sprocket-bolt, just as shown in the pics up above? The "TRUCKS" off the skateboard had the same thing, with at least three choices of softness/hardness "Durometer" number - Plus you can get 'em in bright colours, maybe even GLOW-IN-THE-DARK - which would be cool on a ventilated DRUM hub, maybe even put a few LEDs in the shoe-plate, link 'em to the brake lights, make it look like SPARKS or over-heating glowing when the brakes are actuated? Could be hilarious at night - and who's not gonna think that's just period-correct "GARBAGE" going on? Would help with the whole "SLEEPER" effect! Ha-ha.
No really though - for the grommets in the standard DIY ROUND-HOLE type of cush-drive? Check out the grommets for the skatteboard TRUCKS - and if you're after an even bigger grommet? Maybe four larger ones rather than six or eight small ones? Spool down some skateboard WHEELS with sand-paper etc, cut 'em on a lathe, whatever - 'cause they'll have a huge range of SQUISH to 'em, and colour coordinated too - would be fantastic for TUNING the cush for different kinds of tracks, tires, etc.....
I'd really like to get to work on the 5-bolt front hub, for starters - AND a bolt-up cush for a 6-bolt 40-spoke hub to use on my Harley-pattern drilled rims. I'm building at least the ONE rebuilt Comstar wheel, up front - 'cause I've found an Akront RIM for it - a rear hub for that one, I'm torn on whether to go bolt-up or an all out replacement rear hub - Depends on whether I find a wider rim OR if I have to do the Kosman Industries' "WELD-WIDENED" style wheel (USUALLY seen on cast wheels, it really has no place on a composite wheel except for our supply of aftermarket rims drying up) in which case it might as well not come apart in the first place, leaving the original riveted joints in the spokes etc - for THAT you'll want the front hub & bolt-up cush, unless you're after the later era "Boomerang" Comstar wheels - for which I'd track down the VF500F 2.75x18" wheel as a donor - But ME, I'm into the EARLY style of course, and I'd be shooting for the '76 RCB or '80 RS1000 type of deal, for which my front wheel requires a hub from one wheel & spokes from another - a hassle but quite an iconic period-correct AND high-performance front wheel when it's finished! Thank GAWD the donor wheels are all worth $15-$20ea & are thick on the ground all over the place......
-Sigh.
The XS650 rear drums, and the 7-spoke cast wheels on the Special, don't come with a cush, do they? Well, I'M working with an entirely different marque here, I'd like to preserve the larger scale of cush-drive. The thinned down cush-rubbers/dampeners would naturally squish more, having less surface area - but there will be six of 'em rather than the four or five of the stock Comstar wheels on my "CB900K0 Bol Bomber".
If it's still too stiff in the cush, the vintage GUZZI people recommend taking half of the rubbers out, or drilling holes through the damn things. Reproduction rubbers are out there, but probably not for this model specifically - any of the KZ or GS 6-lug rubbers could work though, being that they'll be modified in any case when the thing's cut down thinner -
I've ALSO been intrigued at the thought of using SK8BOARD wheels or the Varethane/Urethane material from 'em, cut to fit of course, in these rear hubs - 'Cause they came in various "DUROMETER" numbers, more or less squish that is to say. And for the little ROUND ones that'll be suitable for a sprocket-bolt, just as shown in the pics up above? The "TRUCKS" off the skateboard had the same thing, with at least three choices of softness/hardness "Durometer" number - Plus you can get 'em in bright colours, maybe even GLOW-IN-THE-DARK - which would be cool on a ventilated DRUM hub, maybe even put a few LEDs in the shoe-plate, link 'em to the brake lights, make it look like SPARKS or over-heating glowing when the brakes are actuated? Could be hilarious at night - and who's not gonna think that's just period-correct "GARBAGE" going on? Would help with the whole "SLEEPER" effect! Ha-ha.
No really though - for the grommets in the standard DIY ROUND-HOLE type of cush-drive? Check out the grommets for the skatteboard TRUCKS - and if you're after an even bigger grommet? Maybe four larger ones rather than six or eight small ones? Spool down some skateboard WHEELS with sand-paper etc, cut 'em on a lathe, whatever - 'cause they'll have a huge range of SQUISH to 'em, and colour coordinated too - would be fantastic for TUNING the cush for different kinds of tracks, tires, etc.....
I'd really like to get to work on the 5-bolt front hub, for starters - AND a bolt-up cush for a 6-bolt 40-spoke hub to use on my Harley-pattern drilled rims. I'm building at least the ONE rebuilt Comstar wheel, up front - 'cause I've found an Akront RIM for it - a rear hub for that one, I'm torn on whether to go bolt-up or an all out replacement rear hub - Depends on whether I find a wider rim OR if I have to do the Kosman Industries' "WELD-WIDENED" style wheel (USUALLY seen on cast wheels, it really has no place on a composite wheel except for our supply of aftermarket rims drying up) in which case it might as well not come apart in the first place, leaving the original riveted joints in the spokes etc - for THAT you'll want the front hub & bolt-up cush, unless you're after the later era "Boomerang" Comstar wheels - for which I'd track down the VF500F 2.75x18" wheel as a donor - But ME, I'm into the EARLY style of course, and I'd be shooting for the '76 RCB or '80 RS1000 type of deal, for which my front wheel requires a hub from one wheel & spokes from another - a hassle but quite an iconic period-correct AND high-performance front wheel when it's finished! Thank GAWD the donor wheels are all worth $15-$20ea & are thick on the ground all over the place......
-Sigh.
SoyBoySigh
XS650 Member
Yanno - that's what YA'LL could be doing with the XS650 stuff - composite wheels made from the STOCK cast wheels & an alternate rim on the perimeter - That would make for a VERY nice high-performance wheel. Just take the 7-spoke Lester-clone Yam rims, maybe slightly later 5-spoke versions who's to say, the smaller the donor model the better - They could be cut down to remove the rim portion & just leave the spokes - then bolt up a non-dimpled wire-spoke pattern Akront rim OR an Akront "NERVI" rim, just like the MARVIC brand racing wheels from the late '80s & '90s, or "TECHNOMAGNESIO" composite wheels from '70s era Ducati bevel twins like the German distributor's "KONIGSWELLE" special edition of the square-case 900SS Super-Sport twins - Sounds flimsy I'm sure, but you'd be cutting down the perimeter mass by probably 60%-75% by getting rid of the thick wall CAST material with it's inherent porosity - & replacing it with a cold-worked (aka "cold-forged") extruded profile which is hoop-bent & butt-welded - essentially a FORGED wheel in the rim portion, where it really counts - the MARVIC wheels were used on special edition Ducati models in the '90s, and similar wheels used on the BIMOTA TESI 1D no less - This stuff is SERIOUS kit!
I guess the overall gist I wanna convey is not to underestimate the composite wheels, whether wire-spoke OR bolt-up types. And to ditch the 7-spoke cast wheels of the '70s - They no longer have the tubeless advantage, not since the silicone trick. And they're skinny. They've got smaller hubs for an overall lesser TOTAL mass compared to a steel-rimmed wire-spoke wheel with a drum, typical to the early '70s - But with proper HUB selection, ala the "Front Hub Trick" just so long as it's done with minimal use of heavy steel hardware etc - The advantage of their slim "waist" goes out the window, too.
But you've gotta do the COMPONENT SELECTION properly, right down to the material of the spoke-nipples! Forget the shouldered rims - What happens when a dog or stray cat URINATES on your bike's front wheel??? Where's THAT gonna go, when the wheel starts spinning up to speed? ((HINT - the wind won't let it stay in place....))) Each and every type of rim should be compared on a same-size basis with all of the other brands which can be found in that size - SEVERAL of the alloy rims are heavier than the steel rims they've supposedly replaced! The D.I.D. 3.00x16" 48-spoke rim from KZ1000CSR & KZ650CSR, due to the spoke count & small size AND the woefully mis-matched CENTERLINE valve-stem hole (Just about all of the 16" 40-spoke OR 36-spoke 3.50x16" Super-Akront rims have the SIDE-valve, though it's also possible to find a center-line hole on the 36-spoke 'cause the spokes are further apart) has a wall thickness that's probably double the distance between the valve-stem & the next adjacent spoke-nipple hole - even thicker in the side-walls too - It's almost as heavy as the 3.00x16" Borrani drop-center shouldered "Rinforzatto" AND the 3.50x16" Super-Akront rims, TOGETHER - I had NOS specimens of the aftermarket stuff, along with some KZ1000CSR & KZ650CSR rear wheels to play around with - Complete & utter nonsense - IIRC there's a steel rim on the back end of the KZ750LTD twin - THAT thing's surely lighter than the 'CSR rim, there's no doubt in my mind.
Before everything's laced up, and after as well - I've gotta get a really good scale - maybe there's a motorcyclist working at one of the head-shops, who'd be interested in accurate numbers for this type of thing? Well, it'll take a while, 'cause I've got stacks of alloy rims and a half-assed collection of hubs & what-not - I wanna weigh ALL of it - Got half a mind to order an extra set of spoke-nipples in BRASS or even ALUMINUM perhaps - for the "KZ440LOL" project where there won't be as much stress - it's spokes, between the Suzuki 200mm 4LS and the drop-center 3.0x16" Borrani rim, are like those "Navy-Cut" extra short cigarettes! The full spoke with nipple & the bent head, probably a standard cigarette length, or less iirc. Not a smoker here. EITHER way, I doubt very much the stainless-steel Harley-spec spoke-set which I bought for that wheel, are necessary! Got a spare hub & rim, I might have to build a LIGHTWEIGHT version of that wheel - Perhaps with an AKRONT TR rim I've got on hand - The used donor rim I found for that wheel build was off an XS650 - sorry for destroying that one for you guys! Ha-ha. Gotta buy a NEW one this time, now that they're producing 'em again - no doubt 'cause I paid through the nose for all the used specimens on eBay over a five or six year period. Ridiculous, really - But yeah, the NEW rim could be laced with some super-light spokes, super-light RIM, but still swap out one-for-one with the "STREET" version wheel, which is built for bashing pot-holes & curbs on a learner bike for a young chick - But she's got SKILLS man, so each and ever one of these bikes should also have some serious track-day pretensions going on. Wanna get her to Jockey an AHRMA team some day, if I ever get around to buying a lottery ticket.....
Ya'll have some fantastic period ('70s-'80s & similar '90s style) period-correct options for 36-spoke OEM YAMAHA rear disc hubs, by the way - Not just the RD250 unit but the TDR250F had one too, looked like just the thing you're trying to build right there. A hint though - for the period-correct AESTHETIC, stop using the '90s-Y2K+ CROTCH-ROCKETRY, and making the bike look like a STARBUCKS RACER thereby - the compact rear discs from Gixxers & Ninjas etc are cheap, yeah, and compact and matched to a compact caliper etc - But consider instead using a caliper from an RD & lightening the thing down substantially by drilling holes in it's integral hanger bracket etc etc - and for a disc, use a period disc cut down to a smaller diameter, cut down the "height" the radial-length if you will, of those caliper pads IF needs be - Or at the very least, a hunk of CAST-IRON and drill the heck out of it in a period-correct GRID PATTERN of holes! The back-&-forth ZIG-ZAG might seem like something you'd do with a vintage disc, but DON'T - the zig-zag thing is a dead give-away for crotch-rocket parts, even if every other feature were spot on! So don't COPY that style onto the vintage stuff - Better best if you could take the new rotor and copy the VINTAGE PATTERN ONTO IT! Take that Zig-Zag & extend it out into a checker-board of holes - even if you've gotta "king" some of 'em? Meanwhile anything which looks like machined billet especially CNC billet shillet - should be filed down to a bevel on all those sharp corners, sanded like a bejeebuz and then "aged" with a bit of a PATINA - THEN this stuff is gonna look "PERIOD-CORRECT"!
-Sigh.
I guess the overall gist I wanna convey is not to underestimate the composite wheels, whether wire-spoke OR bolt-up types. And to ditch the 7-spoke cast wheels of the '70s - They no longer have the tubeless advantage, not since the silicone trick. And they're skinny. They've got smaller hubs for an overall lesser TOTAL mass compared to a steel-rimmed wire-spoke wheel with a drum, typical to the early '70s - But with proper HUB selection, ala the "Front Hub Trick" just so long as it's done with minimal use of heavy steel hardware etc - The advantage of their slim "waist" goes out the window, too.
But you've gotta do the COMPONENT SELECTION properly, right down to the material of the spoke-nipples! Forget the shouldered rims - What happens when a dog or stray cat URINATES on your bike's front wheel??? Where's THAT gonna go, when the wheel starts spinning up to speed? ((HINT - the wind won't let it stay in place....))) Each and every type of rim should be compared on a same-size basis with all of the other brands which can be found in that size - SEVERAL of the alloy rims are heavier than the steel rims they've supposedly replaced! The D.I.D. 3.00x16" 48-spoke rim from KZ1000CSR & KZ650CSR, due to the spoke count & small size AND the woefully mis-matched CENTERLINE valve-stem hole (Just about all of the 16" 40-spoke OR 36-spoke 3.50x16" Super-Akront rims have the SIDE-valve, though it's also possible to find a center-line hole on the 36-spoke 'cause the spokes are further apart) has a wall thickness that's probably double the distance between the valve-stem & the next adjacent spoke-nipple hole - even thicker in the side-walls too - It's almost as heavy as the 3.00x16" Borrani drop-center shouldered "Rinforzatto" AND the 3.50x16" Super-Akront rims, TOGETHER - I had NOS specimens of the aftermarket stuff, along with some KZ1000CSR & KZ650CSR rear wheels to play around with - Complete & utter nonsense - IIRC there's a steel rim on the back end of the KZ750LTD twin - THAT thing's surely lighter than the 'CSR rim, there's no doubt in my mind.
Before everything's laced up, and after as well - I've gotta get a really good scale - maybe there's a motorcyclist working at one of the head-shops, who'd be interested in accurate numbers for this type of thing? Well, it'll take a while, 'cause I've got stacks of alloy rims and a half-assed collection of hubs & what-not - I wanna weigh ALL of it - Got half a mind to order an extra set of spoke-nipples in BRASS or even ALUMINUM perhaps - for the "KZ440LOL" project where there won't be as much stress - it's spokes, between the Suzuki 200mm 4LS and the drop-center 3.0x16" Borrani rim, are like those "Navy-Cut" extra short cigarettes! The full spoke with nipple & the bent head, probably a standard cigarette length, or less iirc. Not a smoker here. EITHER way, I doubt very much the stainless-steel Harley-spec spoke-set which I bought for that wheel, are necessary! Got a spare hub & rim, I might have to build a LIGHTWEIGHT version of that wheel - Perhaps with an AKRONT TR rim I've got on hand - The used donor rim I found for that wheel build was off an XS650 - sorry for destroying that one for you guys! Ha-ha. Gotta buy a NEW one this time, now that they're producing 'em again - no doubt 'cause I paid through the nose for all the used specimens on eBay over a five or six year period. Ridiculous, really - But yeah, the NEW rim could be laced with some super-light spokes, super-light RIM, but still swap out one-for-one with the "STREET" version wheel, which is built for bashing pot-holes & curbs on a learner bike for a young chick - But she's got SKILLS man, so each and ever one of these bikes should also have some serious track-day pretensions going on. Wanna get her to Jockey an AHRMA team some day, if I ever get around to buying a lottery ticket.....
Ya'll have some fantastic period ('70s-'80s & similar '90s style) period-correct options for 36-spoke OEM YAMAHA rear disc hubs, by the way - Not just the RD250 unit but the TDR250F had one too, looked like just the thing you're trying to build right there. A hint though - for the period-correct AESTHETIC, stop using the '90s-Y2K+ CROTCH-ROCKETRY, and making the bike look like a STARBUCKS RACER thereby - the compact rear discs from Gixxers & Ninjas etc are cheap, yeah, and compact and matched to a compact caliper etc - But consider instead using a caliper from an RD & lightening the thing down substantially by drilling holes in it's integral hanger bracket etc etc - and for a disc, use a period disc cut down to a smaller diameter, cut down the "height" the radial-length if you will, of those caliper pads IF needs be - Or at the very least, a hunk of CAST-IRON and drill the heck out of it in a period-correct GRID PATTERN of holes! The back-&-forth ZIG-ZAG might seem like something you'd do with a vintage disc, but DON'T - the zig-zag thing is a dead give-away for crotch-rocket parts, even if every other feature were spot on! So don't COPY that style onto the vintage stuff - Better best if you could take the new rotor and copy the VINTAGE PATTERN ONTO IT! Take that Zig-Zag & extend it out into a checker-board of holes - even if you've gotta "king" some of 'em? Meanwhile anything which looks like machined billet especially CNC billet shillet - should be filed down to a bevel on all those sharp corners, sanded like a bejeebuz and then "aged" with a bit of a PATINA - THEN this stuff is gonna look "PERIOD-CORRECT"!
-Sigh.
One question SoyBoySigh..........where is your XS650 and how does all this help convert to an xs650..........sorry 3 questions.........one sentence though..........Short answer please
Wow, that is a random long winded rant. I am thoroughly confused as to what you want, and probably why your machinist did things wrong. You repeated and changed and convoluted what you wanted to the point he made it work how he saw fit. Making a honda hub work with a newer large axle front end is simple, I did it on a manual lathe and mill. As for rear you can probably get good bushings to make a cush from somewhere like carrozzeria, they have a simple cush set up on their very expensive wheels.
racerdave
^ Gone not forgotten ^
I have very little input here any longer, but I thought this was a Yammie XS650 based thread?
