1972 xs2 clutch issue. need help

[andrewc]

tore into the clutch side today, to remove clutch springs and replace with new, and noticed something funky. i have added 3 photos of the issues, circled and pointed to. can anyone tell me what the spring (that is broken) attaches to, and i take it im going to need to remove the basket in order to get to said parts in need of attention? this means i will probably need to order a clutch tool as well yes? if someone could post a photo or two of how everything behind the clutch basket is supposed to be, that would help a lot. i have already replaced the clutch discs a while back and everything worked fine, but under heavy acceleration, i could feel the clutch slipping, which is why im back in the right side cover today. (should've done more research on clutch springs before i replaced the discs.) any help and explanation/pictures will be greatly appreciated. thank you.

first photo shows the broken spring on the arm (not sure what it does) and the gouge its made in the engine case.

second photo shows the other arm (the the right of basket) that is touching the engine case.

third photo shows the broken spring hanging on arm.

 

[andrewc]

after doing a little more research just now, it seems as the two arms are connected via the broken spring? is this as easy as just reconnecting them with a new spring, or has something "jumped" or shifted out of alignment since they have not been held together with a spring?

also, when ordering, i take it i need the "shift selector drum detent arm" spring?

 

[gggGary]

View attachment 6351

Part #21 yes it connects the arms and it's not rare to find it broken, easy cheap fix.
The one from Mikes is fine.


Shift Shaft Spring - upper to shift selector drum arm. - Fits: All 650's 1970-84
OEM Ref.# 90506-08007
Part #05-0039
$2.50 USD Ea

Fits all years

Purchase this Yamaha 90506-10022-00 SPRING,TENSION --- SPRING, TENSION, SPRING, TENSION (256-18143-02)
This Yamaha 90506-10022-00 SPRING,TENSION is used on these models and components:

1970 XS1 SHIFTER A
1971 XS1B SHIFTER A
1972 XS2 SHIFTER A
1973 TX650 SHIFTER A
1973 TX750 SHIFTER 1
1974 TX650A SHIFT CAM-FORK TX650A - XS650B - C
1974 TX750A SHIFTER 1
1975 XS650B SHIFT CAM-FORK TX650A - XS650B - C
1977 XS650D SHIFTER 1 XS650D - E - E006501- - F
1978 XS650SE SHIFT CAM-FORK
1978 XS650SE-11 SHIFT CAM-FORK
1978 XS650SE-114241 SHIFT CAM-FORK
1979 XS650SF SHIFT CAM-FORK
1979 XS650_2F SHIFTER 1
1980 XS650G SHIFT CAM - FORK
1980 XS650SG SHIFT CAM-FORK
1981 XS650H SHIFT CAM - FORK
1981 XS650SH SHIFT CAM - FORK
1982 XS650SJ SHIFT CAM-FORK
1983 XS650SK SHIFT CAM FORK

 

[andrewc]

thank you for clarifying what i need. i wasnt sure if anything had to be removed to get the two arms "closer" or clocked to a certain position before stretching the spring. i didnt want to order said parts and then figure out i need a clutch tool..

 

[gggGary]

Just put the new spring on. More than one on here has bent the last coil of the old spring out to make a "hook", put it back on and kept riding til they got the new spring.

 

[Airwolfie]

What you would see.......

Make sure the shift shaft has it's groove over the plate as in this pic.

And here is my clutch removal tool!!!

A nut in between the mole grips so part of it sticks out through the teeth.

 

[gggGary]

As long as you are doing this, read up on adjusting the ratchet bar so it's centered on the star.

 

[andrewc]

1/2/14 bummer update.
parts showed up today. i installed the following parts.
-new vesrah clutch springs from 650central
-new worm gear assembly from mikesxs
- aditional drive and friction plate (now 6/7)
-new shift shaft spring
i adjusted the worm gear properly, connected the clutch cable to the lower of the 2 holes (closest to center, most leverage) and now the clutch isnt fully disengaging. with the lever pulled in, the bike creeps forward on its own, and now i have NO neutral what so ever when the bikes running. i can find neutral with a bunch of fiddling with the bike NOT running. i have the cable adjuster at the perch ALL the way out, and still nothing. ive run out of things to adjust. i never had any problems finding neutral before, and this was actually the best bike for finding neutral ive ever owned or ridden. it was awesome and just fell into place every time. not so much any more. i also noticed i could hear the gears or shift shaft arm making noise from the right hand cover when sitting on the bike, and never could before. any ideas what it could be?

 

[andrewc]

update #2
after a bunch of swearing and frustration, i noticed that the pressure plate was hitting the inside of the right side cover when i would pull the clutch in, and actually making it bow out. so i took everything back apart and decided to remove the outer most fiber plate. i put it all back together and adjusted the worm gear again and now the bike doesnt creep forward on its own when the bike is in gear and i can find neutral, sort of. the shifting is def. not as smooth as before and more defined and "notchy" feeling. finding neutral is def. alot harder than before, i have to shift up to second and then tap the shift lever with my boot until i feel what neutral must be. hopefully it gets better as the clutch breaks in, im happy i can ride again. if that means "notchier" shifting with a non slipping clutch, i guess i can live with that.

now the odd discovery. when i purchased the clutch plates (fiber plates) thats been in my bike for the last few months, i remember buying them because the ebay seller listed them as "NOS for yamaha XS2". i had read before that the newer discs were 3mm and the earlier discs were 3.5. well i measured the discs that were "NOS xs2" and they measured 3.36 on the digital calipers, and the old discs, that were in the motor when i bought it measured 3.55. i find this odd as everyone who mentions disc thickness says the later fibers measure 3.00, and the earlier style measure 3.50. so... i have an odd in the middle size? 6 & 7 was def. too thick to work on my motor... has anyone else heard of this or dealt with it personally? im curious as to what i have.

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

Sounds like you'll need to address two issues, total clutch stack-up thickness, and the new geometry of the MikesXS worm actuator.

In the 'Tech' section, read up on member 'inxs' thread on the clutch. Note that not only did the thickness of the fibres change, the steels did as well. You'll need to come up with a fibre/steel combo that closely matches the original stack-up thickness. Too thick overcompresses the clutch springs, puts more load on the worm actuator.

The MikesXS worm actuator has a finer thread pitch, less travel. Plus, like most of us, your clutch cable is likely too short for optimum leverage, and best adjustment is found by screwing the handlebar adjuster all the way in, and setting the 1/2" handlebar lever slack using just the worm adjustment screw. For more info (actually information overload) please read my thread:

http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31554

 

[andrewc]

Sounds like you'll need to address two issues, total clutch stack-up thickness, and the new geometry of the MikesXS worm actuator.

In the 'Tech' section, read up on member 'inxs' thread on the clutch. Note that not only did the thickness of the fibres change, the steels did as well. You'll need to come up with a fibre/steel combo that closely matches the original stack-up thickness. Too thick overcompresses the clutch springs, puts more load on the worm actuator.

The MikesXS worm actuator has a finer thread pitch, less travel. Plus, like most of us, your clutch cable is likely too short for optimum leverage, and best adjustment is found by screwing the handlebar adjuster all the way in, and setting the 1/2" handlebar lever slack using just the worm adjustment screw. For more info (actually information overload) please read my thread:

http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31554

i have read your thread about "perfecting" the worm gear, and am not sure that is my problem. i have it indexed to when it is relaxed (clutch not engaged) it points down and forward, which makes the cables' attachment point in line with the cables mounting hole in the side cover. you can put the worm gear in different way, but none of them line up which where the actuating arm needs to be. it was pretty obvious to me that it would only work in one spot. as far as the cable goes, the cable i made custom length for my bike/bars. if anything, it may be a few mm too long as ive still got most of the adjuster on the pirch spun outwards to take up slack.

can anyone tell me what the correct stack height is for the XS2 baskets? im thinking i may have a mix of "old & new" and that may be my problem. i rode around after posting last night and im not sure how long i can go with the bike shifting the way it does, and the difficulty im still having finding neutral. figures, my luck, when i try to improve something and make it better, it ends up worse afterwards. haha

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

Here's some info extracted from inxs's clutch thread:

http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=143

6. Plates…You cant get plates for the earlier 6 plate models anymore. Mikesxs and 650Central suggest using the later 7 plate set-up, although theyre thought to increase the incidence of primary dampening spring breakage. Could also swap in the complete later clutch

..........................Steel............Friction
Pre Aug 73...........1.6mm........6 @ 3.5 mm
Aug 73 – Aug 78...1.4 mm.......7 @ 3.0 mm
Post Aug 78.........1.4 mm.......6 @ 3.0 mm

More stackup/thickness discussion: http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=9147

So, the early XS1, XS1B, XS2, and TX650 used 6-frictions and 5-steels.
The available plates used on later 74-78 models used 7-frictions with 6-steels, both thinner.

Early stackup:
6-friction @ 3.5mm = 21.0mm
5-steel @ 1.6mm = 8.0mm
Total stackup = 29.0mm

Later stackup:
7-friction @ 3.0mm = 21.0mm
6-steel @ 1.4mm = 8.4mm
Total stackup = 29.4mm

My XS1B (temporary) stackup:
7-friction @ 3.0mm = 21.0mm
5-steel @ 1.6mm = 8.0mm
Total stackup = 29.0mm

Mine is stacked (F = new/thin friction, S = old/thick steel) temporarily as follows:
F - S - F - S - F - S - F - F - S - F - S - F
Two frictions are alongside each other middle of the pack. Works fine, not racing, sedate rider. Now that I've acquired the later/thinner steels, they'll be installed when I do the overhaul.

The mix/matching of components is a valid concern, seem to see quite a bit of that here. On that same note, check to see if you have the later 'splined' pressure plate. It needs to be properly indexed to the hub/boss at assembly, else you'll experience engagement/disengagement problems.

Check your thicknesses, see what you have for total stackup thickness. The clutch springs and pressure plate function properly within this 29.0mm - 29.4mm region (plus allowances for minor swelling and wear). If your total stackup thickness is greater, plus stronger springs, expect problems with disengagement.

 

[andrewc]

thank you for all the info, i really appreciate it. im going to closer inspect my old/orig. worm gear today and if it is crack free, im going to install it and see if that makes any differences. i think come monday, im just going to call mike over at 650central and order all the correct friction/steel plates and start from scratch. atleast that way i know i have all the same thicknesses and correct parts. ill report back with what my stack height is when i go to pull them. thanks again.

 

[BowlingSS]

Good info. My XS2 on my first ride after restore is slipping and am going to check the thickest of the stack. What are the best options for replacing the plates? I have read a number already. I have the worm gear set at the standard backoff. Thanks guys.
Bill

 

[gggGary]

Good info. My XS2 on my first ride after restore is slipping and am going to check the thickest of the stack. What are the best options for replacing the plates? I have read a number already. I have the worm gear set at the standard backoff. Thanks guys.
Bill

read this?
https://www.xs650.com/threads/8-plate-clutch.55545/
I know a guy..... ;^)

 

[GLJ]

The 8-plate alto works well in in my 256 engine. I'm using a 447 clutch basket and p-plate. My next engine will be256 basket and p-plate. Just have to get the stack height right. If you don't want to go Alto then you need to get Barnett fibers or NOS fibers.