650 is kicking back w/ electronic ignition

[TAlber8]

got the fresh-rebuild with electronic ignition and new coils running great at the end of last year, put it away for winter.

2 weeks ago pull it out runs well take a 25mi ride and all was well.

Go to kick start bIke recently (kick only) and kicks back so hard I was limping, I never got it started.

Fully Charged battery off tender tried again with same result.

It's like the timing moved... is that possible?

 

[peanut]

Unlikely I should have thought if its electronic ignition and advance .
I had the same thing happen to me the other day on my first ride of the year. I had a few kickbacks and they sure make you wary and a little hesitant in case you get another .

I rarely use the kickstart for that reason but I read somewhere that its advisable to kick the engine over 2-3 times first with the gas on and the ignition off then bring the engine up just past the top of a compression stoke and give it a brisk confident kick . I think the position of the pistons is quite important when kickstarting but I may be wrong

 

[robinc]

Agreed Peanut. I read a tip, I think from angus67. When using the kickstart, give it a short easy kick to build the compression, return kick starter, then a good smooth kick and it will start easy. Always worked for me.

 

[gggGary]

Madness (high compression 750 with a semi "race" cam) will kick back on the first stroke of the lever. I also do the bring it up to TDC, then launch up and KICK start it. I never ever lock my knee and the kick back is no big deal. I did fluck my ankle last fall on a honda 250 when the kick start locked solid partway down. Wasn't expecting that.

 

[pamcopete]

If this is a PAMCO with the E-Advancer, then the algorithm retards the timing 10 degrees below 200RPM to hopefully eliminate that problem. Of course, that requires that the timing be correct to begin with, and that is true for any ignition. With a mechanical advance, it's possible that the springs do not fully retard the timing when trying to kick start, and that condition can be worse if the bike has been sitting for a while, so if you have a mechanical advance, it might help if you remove, clean and lube the advance and the advance rod.

 

[TAlber8]

If this is a PAMCO with the E-Advancer, then the algorithm retards the timing 10 degrees below 200RPM to hopefully eliminate that problem. Of course, that requires that the timing be correct to begin with, and that is true for any ignition. With a mechanical advance, it's possible that the springs do not fully retard the timing when trying to kick start, and that condition can be worse if the bike has been sitting for a while, so if you have a mechanical advance, it might help if you remove, clean and lube the advance and the advance rod.

Hmm I'll check this out. The mechanical advance is for sure wonky. Last year when we got it set the timing would be good and then you could see it jump out of nowhere while idling. In practice it stalls sometimes when idling with that.

We had it great at the end of last year, it was comical how easy it would start, when warm I could roll the kicker by hand and it would fire!

Thanks for the inputs!

 

[motormike]

… had a friend break a ankle kick'n his73' Tx 650..... and last week..another buddy kick'd his C15 Triumph... broke his foot. I got one lungers…… even if you do everything correct.. they sometimes kick back....

 

[peanut]

… had a friend break a ankle kick'n his73' Tx 650..... and last week..another buddy kick'd his C15 Triumph... broke his foot. I got one lungers…… even if you do everything correct.. they sometimes kick back....

ouch ! i'm sticking to my electric foot .
I have a feeling that the faster you kick through with the kickstart the more momentum you create with the crank the more likely any firing will result in the crank continuing to rotate in the correct direction without kickback. its just a theory mind

 

[Jim]

Had an ol' BSA 441 Victor one lunger that was my daily driver. It would try to flip me over the handlebars almost daily. The trick, as Gary said is to never lock your knee.
I've often wondered if the ol' bitch is part of the reason I now have an aftermarket knee on the right leg....

 

[andrsn]

I once rebuilt an engine and forgot to set the cam chain tension before trying to start. It was really hard to get started and would kick back super hard once and a while, essentially it caused the timing to be inconsistent and incorrect, just worth double checking... I always do now.

 

[TAlber8]

Hmm I'll check this out. The mechanical advance is for sure wonky. Last year when we got it set the timing would be good and then you could see it jump out of nowhere while idling. In practice it stalls sometimes when idling with that.

We had it great at the end of last year, it was comical how easy it would start, when warm I could roll the kicker by hand and it would fire!

Thanks for the inputs!

So... took ignition covers off, and was a little and advance mechanism seems fine... moves freely. I ziptied the weights closed, and on the slowest turnover it was even kicking back.

It went from running really well and starting ridiculously easy and smooth to this in a matter of a week, I can see the marks on pamco I had made with marker, if it slipped its barely... not enough to cause this. Guess I'll check cam chain tension?

Can't even get t to run to put a light on it

 

[hogtyed]

Had an ol' BSA 441 Victor one lunger that was my daily driver. It would try to flip me over the handlebars almost daily. The trick, as Gary said is to never lock your knee.
I've often wondered if the ol' bitch is part of the reason I now have an aftermarket knee on the right leg....

Reminds me of the Yamaha 360 one lungers. If you don't start at TDC, you'd better wear your cape.

 

[gggGary]

Dang it all anyways you'se guys MADE me.
16 years old 6' 2" 150 pounds.(maybe)
63 "race only" 500 Gold Star with a mag, That thing could wrap your leg around your neck if you weren't careful.
Once it was warm it would wear me out before it would start but man, I knew NOTHING!
Paid $80 adjusted the valves, made it "street legal" HAH. Rode it a summer and sold it for $175, I was such a wheeler dealer.

 

[TAlber8]

Cam chain tensioner had backed all the way out.

Unfortunately righting it back up did not solve the problem, maybe even made it worse. I'm afraid it may have jumped a tooth.

I'll have to investigate more

 

[TAlber8]

Refresh: cam timing had jumped but I corrected.

Rechecked valve clearance and cam chain tension.

Isn't running but grounding plugs and turning over by hand from flywheel, the ignition seems if anything, too retarded from eying spark. Maybe this method is too inaccurate?

Put on motorcross boot to kick it over and it immediately snapped with a kickback.

I'm not sure where to go next... any ideas ?

 

[gggGary]

I'm guessing you are advanced. LOL
You can pull the plugs and check with a timing light either electric or kick. (assistant needed)
If your timing light has an advance dial be sure it's on zero.
About 10 posts ago Pete suggested you pull clean and lube the mechanical advance rod, check bob weights, and spring action, did you do this? Are you Pamco?

 

[hogtyed]

Static timing is actually very accurate when done properly. You need to run a light and power source in series with your points after you set the points gap.

If you have a Pamco ignition, make sure the engine is TDC and center your adjustment range on the Pamco and tighten it down. Then time it with a light once you start it up.

 

[gggGary]

For your timing reference; pamcos, installed on running bikes.
first is with a mechanical advance over 10,000 miles on this pamco.

second is with the separate e-advance. more than 5000 miles on this one.

The all in one pamco is still in a box on the shelf.

 

[650Skull]

Is that madness in the bottom pic??...........Whatever, its an Eskimo.........looks like its blown a seal.............