79 xs650sf brake light /alternator failure light on

[wildav]

Hi all, yesterday all my tediously searched for and stored info on pma charging system and related issues came to an evaporated end when my computer updated itself back to it;s birth. Everything gone , in less than 60 seconds, much less. I had saved many threads on the issues that you had contributedView attachment 135672 .I just replaced the xscharge stator and reg/rec with a Kawasaki part that was listed by mrriggs as suitable and a mosfet reg. It is charging nicely at about 14.22 volts by my meter. The brake light indicator is on but brake and taillight are functioning normally. headlight as well. The safety/lghtg relay is also ticking like a sewing machine, the light and relay are in sync. I made a pigtail from stator connector to original rectifier for headlight operation. .Also bypassed the rectifier and tried the original one wire pigtail to safety relay and light and relay still chirping. Bypassed relay altogether and light shined brightly. If any of you that posted info about anything that might be related to this problem can point me in the right direction it would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Pete

 

[5twins]

The dash light for brake and tail light failure isn't controlled by the starter/headlight safety relay, it's controlled by the light checker. Maybe that part has gone bad. What will also turn that dash light on is changing to an L.E.D. tail light bulb. It uses such a small amount of current that apparently the light checker thinks it's burned out.

 

[wildav]

The dash light for brake and tail light failure isn't controlled by the starter/headlight safety relay, it's controlled by the light checker. Maybe that part has gone bad. What will also turn that dash light on is changing to an L.E.D. tail light bulb. It uses such a small amount of current that apparently the light checker thinks it's burned out.

Thanks 5T, thought the light checker could be the problem. No led's tho, bike is stock except for pamco ignition and pma. Still don't know why the s/l relay is switching on and off so rapidly, just noted that trouble light flickering and rate of relay switching noise was synchronized with rpm's. I appreciate your response .btw, all my data has returned from wherever, mackeral I guess.Thanks again, and any input is always welcome.

 

[XSLeo]

In the diagram you posted in your first post, I don't see why you need the stock rectifier hooked in. Just hook the yellow wire to one of the wires from the stator to the reg/rec. This duplicates the way the stock system works.
Leo

 

[wildav]

In the diagram you posted in your first post, I don't see why you need the stock rectifier hooked in. Just hook the yellow wire to one of the wires from the stator to the reg/rec. This duplicates the way the stock system works.
Leo

Hello Leo, You're right. I need to thank you for that info. You are the one who solved the mystery of no headlight for me back in June when I did the xscharge initial install. I did do it that way and it worked fine. An hour or two to install and the spent the next two weeks between chasing wires ,testing circuits and looking here for an answer before coming across your post.(Still think companies that sell crap should know how to install it so that everything works properly). The stator and reg/rec didn't hold up though and during the subsequent time span I found a concise tutorial by by mrriggs and decided to do it that way when I got a used Kaw stator and a mosfet unit. I still had the stock rectifier. I am going to do over, quick and easy enough to do and less wire, the regulator has 12ga. wires . As for the relay switching on and off, I don't what's going on there. Am about to dive in here and hunt. Any knowledge imparted is welcome. Thanks again

 

[5twins]

Yes, I've never seen that method of utilizing a second rectifier to power the yellow wire to the safety relay. That could be the problem for one of several reasons. First, the original set-up ran the yellow wire directly from the alternator to the safety relay, and not through the rectifier. The alternator produces AC current or voltage. Passing it through a rectifier would convert that to DC voltage. Maybe that's the issue? Maybe the relay needs AC voltage to function correctly? Also, I'm pretty sure that yellow wire only tapped into one of the three phases in the alternator. That means it would only be sending 4 or 5 volts to the safety relay.

 

[wildav]

Yes, I've never seen that method of utilizing a second rectifier to power the yellow wire to the safety relay. That could be the problem for one of several reasons. First, the original set-up ran the yellow wire directly from the alternator to the safety relay, and not through the rectifier. The alternator produces AC current or voltage. Passing it through a rectifier would convert that to DC voltage. Maybe that's the issue? Maybe the relay needs AC voltage to function correctly? Also, I'm pretty sure that yellow wire only tapped into one of the three phases in the alternator. That means it would only be sending 4 or 5 volts to the safety relay.

That's right, according to one source I've read it takes about 6 volts ac to operate the relays. That original connection was tied to three wires in the stator though. I did disconnect the rectifier and connect with the one wire direct from stator to relay and switching was still occurring. At least I know the relays open and close. When the xscharge units failed something else must have been effected.

 

[gggGary]

Sounds like you have a DC relay? That yellow wire is AC and the stock relay it powered was an AC relay. Like you mentioned about 5 volts IIRC.

 

[wildav]

Good morning gggGary, It's the stock relay. I'm wondering if the chatter may be caused by a bad diode. I bought another relay set from plowboy a while back for a comparison test of the diodes. It tested the same as my original, voltage both directions.Don't know if the diode is bad or if it's reading through the circuit some way.The resistor checked out ok on both units tho. I think I'll go see the generator shop man. He messes with diodes every day.

 

[XSLeo]

In my early Yamaha repair manuals it list the spec's for the safety relay cut out voltage of 2.5 volts or less.
With the testing I have done with AA batteries that is about right. One battery won't trip them, two will. I tested several of mine just to see. Some took 3 batteries.
As I recall you can take the cover off the relay and adjust the spring tension on the contacts to adjust the voltage that it trips at. Cleaning the contacts won't hurt either.
On the yellow wire, I don't think it's actually AC it's more of a pulsing DC. In the stator one end of each winding comes together and this is where the yellow wire hooks in. The other end of each winding goes out the rectifier. From the rectifier to positive and ground. The yellow wire goes to the safety relay then to ground. The only way it can get back to the stator windings is through the rectifier ground. If this current flow passes through the rectifier then it has to be DC.
For testing purposes you can get a 5 prong relay. most carts have plenty under the hood. they use them for fuel pumps, air conditioning, all sorts of things. I pick up a few every time I go to the salvage yard looking for car parts.
You can find the 4 prong versions in the stores but won't work for this task.
On the 5 prong relay the prongs are numbered. 85 and 86 trip the relay. power in on 30, power out on 87A when not tripped, this is the one you use. The 4 prong one don't have this prong. 87 is power out when tripped, this turns on things like lighting. the 4 prong use this one.
You can make jumper wire that hook to the relay then plug into the harness plug where the stock relay plugs in.
If this works then your stock relay is bad or needs cleaning and adjusting. If it makes no difference the your problem is elsewhere.
Leo

 

[wildav]

Thanks guys, got it sorted out .Canned the relays and the light checker
and will put a switch to the headlight.

 

[Cafe Murdock]

I'm have in trouble get my 79 650 to charge at all it all stock

 

[XSLeo]

Café Murdock, I can't do links or I would, up near top of page find the TECH, clicking on this takes you to a list of topics, such as Electrical. Under Electrical look for the Charging guide.
It will take you step by step to trouble shoot your system.
Leo

 

[wildav]

In my early Yamaha repair manuals it list the spec's for the safety relay cut out voltage of 2.5 volts or less.
With the testing I have done with AA batteries that is about right. One battery won't trip them, two will. I tested several of mine just to see. Some took 3 batteries.
As I recall you can take the cover off the relay and adjust the spring tension on the contacts to adjust the voltage that it trips at. Cleaning the contacts won't hurt either.
On the yellow wire, I don't think it's actually AC it's more of a pulsing DC. In the stator one end of each winding comes together and this is where the yellow wire hooks in. The other end of each winding goes out the rectifier. From the rectifier to positive and ground. The yellow wire goes to the safety relay then to ground. The only way it can get back to the stator windings is through the rectifier ground. If this current flow passes through the rectifier then it has to be DC.
For testing purposes you can get a 5 prong relay. most carts have plenty under the hood. they use them for fuel pumps, air conditioning, all sorts of things. I pick up a few every time I go to the salvage yard looking for car parts.
You can find the 4 prong versions in the stores but won't work for this task.
On the 5 prong relay the prongs are numbered. 85 and 86 trip the relay. power in on 30, power out on 87A when not tripped, this is the one you use. The 4 prong one don't have this prong. 87 is power out when tripped, this turns on things like lighting. the 4 prong use this one.
You can make jumper wire that hook to the relay then plug into the harness plug where the stock relay plugs in.
If this works then your stock relay is bad or needs cleaning and adjusting. If it makes no difference the your problem is elsewhere.
Leo

Hey Leo, Yesterday while sitting around waiting for a tornado or whatever else the clouds might bring , I went out to the barn to play with some old parts and tested the safety relay coils. I thought I might have toasted them by connecting them to unregulated alternator voltage. They both read around 25 ohms so I connected them to my charger and both checked good. I reinstalled one and it is working properly now, no chattering. The light checker or a circuit incorporated in it must have been the bug. No headlight switch needed now, Appreciate your input