'82 XS650J headlight/relay problem

[Shellsurf]

Aloha to all!
My headlight isn't working. Last thing I had done was to have a PMA from Mikes installed. Starts up great!
I don't know if the headlight was working when I picked it up from the shop. Due to injury I haven't ridden in 1 year.
On inspection, so many disconnected and cut wires!!! Bypassed the relay, and the headlight works, so I bought a used relay, but same result. Now what?
I believe the headlight turns on with the key before actual starting, right?
Mahalo, Shelly

 

[xjwmx]

Aloha. With the stock arrangement the light comes on after the motor starts. If you're using a stock relay, then 6 volts from the generator on the yellow wire turns the headlight on. If you jumpered the relay and it worked, you might just be missing that. You can permanently jumper the relay and put a manual switch for the headlight on the handlebar. It should be a motorcycle rated switch though.

 

[Shellsurf]

Aloha. With the stock arrangement the light comes on after the motor starts.

OK, thanx for that.

If you're using a stock relay, then 6 volts from the generator on the yellow wire turns the headlight on. If you jumpered the relay and it worked, you might just be missing that.

Meaning that relay is no good?

You can permanently jumper the relay and put a manual switch for the headlight on the handlebar. It should be a motorcycle rated switch though.

Mahalo for your response. I'm hoping there might be a way to use the existing system without modding the wiring. I wonder if others have had a similar problem and how they solved it. I wish the the PCB that the 2 relays are mounted on wasn't sealed with epoxy resin. Has anyone torn one of these apart? I'm wondering if the diode might be the problem...

 

[Shellsurf]

Also can anyone tell me what a Reserve Lighting Unit is?

 

[xjwmx]

I did have the one with the diode open. The diode was bad and the effect was very strange, although I don't remember what it was. I replaced it with a 1n4004 or similar from Radio Shack. The same style diode is in the TCI so I replaced it there too to be safe. The RLU turns the high filament on if the low blows so you still have lights. It's unclear what happens if it fails from age, so I removed mine. I will count on my thumb to switch to high. I don't remember if you need to do anything besides remove it to still have lights, but there's plenty written on it here, or on xsgarage.com. If you have power on the yellow wire and you get lights if and only if you jump the lighting relay, then either the diode or the lighting relay coil is open. You can tell which from the outside.

OOPS. It's the "safety relay" that had the diode inside that was bad, not the two relays on the single board. At any rate, the dual relays are easy to check from the outside too. I seem to remember I re-soldered one of the coil terminations inside a relay on the dual board. I hope not, because I have been trusting it a lot more than I should have then.

 

[fredintoon]

Aloha to all!
My headlight isn't working. Last thing I had done was to have a PMA from Mikes installed. Starts up great!
I don't know if the headlight was working when I picked it up from the shop. Due to injury I haven't ridden in 1 year.
On inspection, so many disconnected and cut wires!!! Bypassed the relay, and the headlight works, so I bought a used relay, but same result. Now what?
I believe the headlight turns on with the key before actual starting, right?
Mahalo, Shelly

Hi Shelly,
good that you have healed up enough to ride again.
BTW xjwmx missed a step. The stock XS650 headlight is supposed to auto-turn on when the alternator starts charging.
If the motor starts but the alternator don't charge &/or the associated wiring has been messed with the headlight stays dark.
What I reckon is, your problems are to do with all those disconnected and cut wires you found.
When you started the bike at the shop did the big white light in the console not light up to tell you that the headlight was fritzed?
You got any hope of a warranty from the shop who did the PMA installation?

 

[xjwmx]

BTW xjwmx missed a step. The stock XS650 headlight is supposed to auto-turn on when the alternator starts charging.
If the motor starts but the alternator don't charge &/or the associated wiring has been messed with the headlight stays dark.

Well, I meant that's what happens if everything is working right...

 

[fredintoon]

Well, I meant that's what happens if everything is working right...

Well, yeah.
Thing is, there's some weird shit that goes on with XS650s that a newbie like Shelly seems to be wouldn't believe was possible.
I find it's helpful to spell it all out in detail to ease the confusion.
I mean, someone conned Shelly into a PMA swap fer Chrissake!

 

[Shellsurf]

I did have the one with the diode open. The diode was bad and the effect was very strange, although I don't remember what it was. I replaced it with a 1n4004 or similar from Radio Shack. The same style diode is in the TCI so I replaced it there too to be safe. The RLU turns the high filament on if the low blows so you still have lights. It's unclear what happens if it fails from age, so I removed mine. I will count on my thumb to switch to high. I don't remember if you need to do anything besides remove it to still have lights, but there's plenty written on it here, or on xsgarage.com. If you have power on the yellow wire and you get lights if and only if you jump the lighting relay, then either the diode or the lighting relay coil is open. You can tell which from the outside.

View attachment 103539

OOPS. It's the "safety relay" that had the diode inside that was bad, not the two relays on the single board. At any rate, the dual relays are easy to check from the outside too. I seem to remember I re-soldered one of the coil terminations inside a relay on the dual board. I hope not, because I have been trusting it a lot more than I should have then.

OK, thanx for that. Glad to know what RLU does..

 

[Shellsurf]

Well, yeah.
Thing is, there's some weird shit that goes on with XS650s that a newbie like Shelly seems to be wouldn't believe was possible.
I find it's helpful to spell it all out in detail to ease the confusion.
I mean, someone conned Shelly into a PMA swap fer Chrissake!

So what's the deal about PMA? I saw it on Mikesxs and it sounded like just what I needed. No more starting issues. It was pricey and I was shocked to see the state of my wiring when I looked under the covers. Why the dissing of PMA? Is it ecause it's not stock?

 

[Shellsurf]

Hi Shelly,
good that you have healed up enough to ride again.
BTW xjwmx missed a step. The stock XS650 headlight is supposed to auto-turn on when the alternator starts charging.
If the motor starts but the alternator don't charge &/or the associated wiring has been messed with the headlight stays dark.
What I reckon is, your problems are to do with all those disconnected and cut wires you found.
When you started the bike at the shop did the big white light in the console not light up to tell you that the headlight was fritzed?
You got any hope of a warranty from the shop who did the PMA installation?

 

[xjwmx]

I mean, someone conned Shelly into a PMA swap fer Chrissake!

LOL. There was a lot of that going on here for awhile. I'm glad I'm naturally slow (to move).

 

[Shellsurf]

Thanx for your response, Fred. No warning light when I picked it up at shop. The mechanic has recently left that shop, (which is automotive but also had a bike mechanic) and is now working at the Harley shop here that has a $30/hr. higher hourly rate. Grrrr...

 

[xjwmx]

^You positively need to learn how to work on it yourself. Because there is always lots of work. I can tell you have the ability. I would -- sand in my hair, wind in my shoes, gentle strains of uke wafting by with guys singing in falsetto...

 

[Shellsurf]

I did have the one with the diode open. The diode was bad and the effect was very strange, although I don't remember what it was. I replaced it with a 1n4004 or similar from Radio Shack. The same style diode is in the TCI so I replaced it there too to be safe. The RLU turns the high filament on if the low blows so you still have lights. It's unclear what happens if it fails from age, so I removed mine. I will count on my thumb to switch to high. I don't remember if you need to do anything besides remove it to still have lights, but there's plenty written on it here, or on xsgarage.com. If you have power on the yellow wire and you get lights if and only if you jump the lighting relay, then either the diode or the lighting relay coil is open. You can tell which from the outside.

View attachment 103539

OOPS. It's the "safety relay" that had the diode inside that was bad, not the two relays on the single board. At any rate, the dual relays are easy to check from the outside too. I seem to remember I re-soldered one of the coil terminations inside a relay on the dual board. I hope not, because I have been trusting it a lot more than I should have then.

BTW, Thanx for including the schematic of relays. Someone did a nioe job on that. I will check out xsgarage also

 

[xjwmx]

^I just tried to go to xsgarage.com and xs650garage.com and they don't exist. Maybe I have the name wrong and somebody else can help. It was the precursor site to this one, inactive but with lots of archived info.

 

[Shellsurf]

^You positively need to learn how to work on it yourself. Because there is always lots of work. I can tell you have the ability. I would -- sand in my hair, wind in my shoes, gentle strains of uke wafting by with guys singing in falsetto...

Yes, Iʻm thinking I may need to take matters into my own hands. Im trying a new guy who is mobile, which is great. He seems good & was the one who bypassed the relay. He too suggested just bypass and add a switch but for some reason Iʻm thinking that there has got to be a way to repair. However, Now he keeps moving my appointment so i'm thinking I should just get after it myself... I have downloaded some swell schematics, easier on this Boomers eyes, and I have a Fluke multimeter. Iʻm thinking of getting the Dremel out and grinding the epoxy resin so I can dissect the relay & troubleshoot circuitry...

 

[Shellsurf]

^I just tried to go to xsgarage.com and xs650garage.com and they don't exist. Maybe I have the name wrong and somebody else can help. It was the precursor site to this one, inactive but with lots of archived info.

Oh yeah, xs650 rider or something like that?

 

[xjwmx]

^Yes. That's it. 650rider.com. Not sure what state it's in now, but was valuable. There was also another with garage in the name that was less active but maybe even more valuable. I did an electrical mod I found on there.

 

[xjwmx]

He too suggested just bypass and add a switch but for some reason Iʻm thinking that there has got to be a way to repair. However, Now he keeps moving my appointment so i'm thinking I should just get after it myself... I have downloaded some swell schematics, easier on this Boomers eyes, and I have a Fluke multimeter. Iʻm thinking of getting the Dremel out and grinding the epoxy resin so I can dissect the relay & troubleshoot circuitry...

Probably the best thing you could do if you wanted to "repair" it would be connect 6-12vdc from the running PMA on the yellow wire, then you would have the old function. Don't remember how I got the old relays open. Maybe just unbending tabs. I remember using silicone sealer to seal them back up against the elements. But like I said, you can completely test their function from the outside and not open them unnecessarily.

PS. I said 6-12v. I think the relay with the yellow wire is 6v and I don't know if 12v would burn it out. The other relay might be 6v as well because it gets power through a 45 ohm resistor connected to 12v, and if its coil resistance was also 45 ohms that coil would just see 6v too. The easiest solution if you only have 12v might be to put a 45 ohm resistor in series with the yellow wire. If the two relays have a similar coil resistance. Should be the same size as the 45 ohm resistor already on the board.