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YL82
Perpetual Restorationist
I meant to chime in on this thread earlier, but I had just received my cylinder bore gauge and had no idea how to zero it and use it.
I ordered a Dial Bore Gauge Combo (Model POW351075) from Summit Racing back in freakin' March. It was back-ordered for months and I got a direct shipment from the mfr. or likely the Distributor (Powerhouse Products) in mid-May. I paid $135 for it.
This combo set is actually labeled PHASE II on both the gauge handle and the dial indicator (900-098). I think its the same model Phase II handle & anvil portion as the one used in the YouTube video (by Jafromobile) referenced in this thread by DogBunny.
Jafro had swapped out his Phase II (900-096) Dial Indicator with a Cen Tech (Harbor Freight brand) Digital Indicator.
I like the Jafro's YouTube video below called Blueprint 101 - "Using Micrometers, Calipers & Bore Gauges".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&list=FLIsZyEuoH8DhIPjEKG7n36A&v=gjN0fGfUzl0
The Phase II Dial Indicator (900-098) that I got with my Set is incremeted in .0005" with every complete sweep of the needle being 0.05" or five hundredths of an inch. I found this dial indicator on a website and it listed for about $18. Pretty low-end... The Phase II (900-096) Dial Indicator used in the Blueprint 101 video was $42 on this same site. I like the fact that it is incremented in .0001" with every complete sweep of the needle being 0.01" (one hundredth of an inch). Will probably buy a Phase II 900-096 Dial Indicator and am considering an electronic digital indicator, cause, hey, I'm a Tool Junky too.
If I had to do it all over again, I'd buy the Phase II set that Jafro showed since it comes with the plastic case & 900-096 Dial Indicator. Not sure why I had to have the silly wooden case. Jafro's set is from Stef's B&B Fabrication Specialties. I found their website, but a price isn't listed. Search the site for "dial bore gauge". It's Part No. 40180.
Http://www.stefsperformance.net
A lot of the very same gauges get re-packaged by different companies, they put em' in different cases and charge widely variable prices for the same thing.
I had initially bought a single Mitutoyo Telescoping Gauge that covered a range from 2.125" to 3.5". I took dozens of cylinder bore measurements with this transfer gauge and flat gave up as I could not get reproducible measurements. Obviously, one must develop a feel for properly using "snap gauges". I'm sold on cylinder bore gauges, but setting them up & zeroing them is somewhat tedious.
For comparison, I took 12 total measurements of my 2 bores at 3 different depths and vertically and horizontally using my dial bore gauge and the Mit. Telescoping Gauge:
Phase II Dial Bore Gauge (RANGE of 12 measurements): 2.9532" - 2.9542"
Mitutoyo Telescoping Gauge (RANGE of 12 measurements): 2.9409" - 2.9754"
Though I thought that I was taking painstaking measurements with the snap gauge, I clearly was all over the damn place and sadly have to admit that I was stone-cold sober. Might as well had been 3 sheets to the wind. Oh, one's skills at using and reading an outside micrometer can introduce error, but I blame it on the transfer gauge moreso.
As 5twins mentioned, its pretty tricky to line up the digital (vernier) caliper edges with those little ball contacts on the dial bore gauge.
I much prefer to use a 2" - 3" Outside Micrometer (secured in a portable Drill Press Vise from Lowe's) to zero the cylinder bore gauge. I set up my gauge in a lab-type stand to hold it while I positioned the bore gauge arbor in between the micrometer's Carbide measuring faces.
As far as Digital Caliper recommendation, I love the first one I bought a couple of years ago and still use it. It's from Lowe's and its their Kobalt brand. You can toggle between metric and inches and you can Zero it with the push of a button. Cost about $30.00.
My Outside Micrometers (0"-1", 1"-2", 2"-3" and 3"-4") are all some label-less Chinese brand, but I've got standards and know to account for the slight inaccuracies (.0001" -.0002"). Jafro covers these well in the Blueprint 101 video.
I ordered a Dial Bore Gauge Combo (Model POW351075) from Summit Racing back in freakin' March. It was back-ordered for months and I got a direct shipment from the mfr. or likely the Distributor (Powerhouse Products) in mid-May. I paid $135 for it.
This combo set is actually labeled PHASE II on both the gauge handle and the dial indicator (900-098). I think its the same model Phase II handle & anvil portion as the one used in the YouTube video (by Jafromobile) referenced in this thread by DogBunny.
Jafro had swapped out his Phase II (900-096) Dial Indicator with a Cen Tech (Harbor Freight brand) Digital Indicator.
I like the Jafro's YouTube video below called Blueprint 101 - "Using Micrometers, Calipers & Bore Gauges".
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&list=FLIsZyEuoH8DhIPjEKG7n36A&v=gjN0fGfUzl0
The Phase II Dial Indicator (900-098) that I got with my Set is incremeted in .0005" with every complete sweep of the needle being 0.05" or five hundredths of an inch. I found this dial indicator on a website and it listed for about $18. Pretty low-end... The Phase II (900-096) Dial Indicator used in the Blueprint 101 video was $42 on this same site. I like the fact that it is incremented in .0001" with every complete sweep of the needle being 0.01" (one hundredth of an inch). Will probably buy a Phase II 900-096 Dial Indicator and am considering an electronic digital indicator, cause, hey, I'm a Tool Junky too.
If I had to do it all over again, I'd buy the Phase II set that Jafro showed since it comes with the plastic case & 900-096 Dial Indicator. Not sure why I had to have the silly wooden case. Jafro's set is from Stef's B&B Fabrication Specialties. I found their website, but a price isn't listed. Search the site for "dial bore gauge". It's Part No. 40180.
Http://www.stefsperformance.net
A lot of the very same gauges get re-packaged by different companies, they put em' in different cases and charge widely variable prices for the same thing.
I had initially bought a single Mitutoyo Telescoping Gauge that covered a range from 2.125" to 3.5". I took dozens of cylinder bore measurements with this transfer gauge and flat gave up as I could not get reproducible measurements. Obviously, one must develop a feel for properly using "snap gauges". I'm sold on cylinder bore gauges, but setting them up & zeroing them is somewhat tedious.
For comparison, I took 12 total measurements of my 2 bores at 3 different depths and vertically and horizontally using my dial bore gauge and the Mit. Telescoping Gauge:
Phase II Dial Bore Gauge (RANGE of 12 measurements): 2.9532" - 2.9542"
Mitutoyo Telescoping Gauge (RANGE of 12 measurements): 2.9409" - 2.9754"
Though I thought that I was taking painstaking measurements with the snap gauge, I clearly was all over the damn place and sadly have to admit that I was stone-cold sober. Might as well had been 3 sheets to the wind. Oh, one's skills at using and reading an outside micrometer can introduce error, but I blame it on the transfer gauge moreso.
As 5twins mentioned, its pretty tricky to line up the digital (vernier) caliper edges with those little ball contacts on the dial bore gauge.
I much prefer to use a 2" - 3" Outside Micrometer (secured in a portable Drill Press Vise from Lowe's) to zero the cylinder bore gauge. I set up my gauge in a lab-type stand to hold it while I positioned the bore gauge arbor in between the micrometer's Carbide measuring faces.
As far as Digital Caliper recommendation, I love the first one I bought a couple of years ago and still use it. It's from Lowe's and its their Kobalt brand. You can toggle between metric and inches and you can Zero it with the push of a button. Cost about $30.00.
My Outside Micrometers (0"-1", 1"-2", 2"-3" and 3"-4") are all some label-less Chinese brand, but I've got standards and know to account for the slight inaccuracies (.0001" -.0002"). Jafro covers these well in the Blueprint 101 video.
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YamaLovin, thanks for the info, I will be looking at it closer soon.
I ended up buying the bore gauge that 5twins recommended (thank you). I have only played with it so far, took some practice measurements, but I am very happy with it. The sled does seem to be effective. I paid $50 on eBay for one that was "used once." Some have gone for as little as $40.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/330720242982
I then bought the above micrometer. It is made in China, but seems to be well machined and made, and I am happy with it. Yes, I agree that calibrating the bore gauge must be done with a micrometer, and that trying to do it with a caliper would be a waste of time. It came with only a 2" standard, but since the XS650 cylinder is nearly 3", I felt the need to get a 3" standard.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/300756621365
So I bought the above item. Made in China by the same company as made my micrometer.
So, for less than $85, I now feel like I have the tools to measure my cylinders accurately. This is really important to me, I hate having to rely on others and then never fully trusting what they did.
I've been busy with other stuff, but I'll probably be back with more questions once I get back to my top-end job. Thanks.
I ended up buying the bore gauge that 5twins recommended (thank you). I have only played with it so far, took some practice measurements, but I am very happy with it. The sled does seem to be effective. I paid $50 on eBay for one that was "used once." Some have gone for as little as $40.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/330720242982
I then bought the above micrometer. It is made in China, but seems to be well machined and made, and I am happy with it. Yes, I agree that calibrating the bore gauge must be done with a micrometer, and that trying to do it with a caliper would be a waste of time. It came with only a 2" standard, but since the XS650 cylinder is nearly 3", I felt the need to get a 3" standard.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/300756621365
So I bought the above item. Made in China by the same company as made my micrometer.
So, for less than $85, I now feel like I have the tools to measure my cylinders accurately. This is really important to me, I hate having to rely on others and then never fully trusting what they did.
I've been busy with other stuff, but I'll probably be back with more questions once I get back to my top-end job. Thanks.
YL82
Perpetual Restorationist
You're welcome. I'll be glad to try to help out when you have more questions.
The tools that you've picked up will serve you well. A good set of standards is important. I've love to have a custom-made gauge ring set to stock bore, but that is way too expensive for me.
I'm certainly no expert on any of this stuff, but I've discovered that buying cool precision measurement tools and taking lots of intricate measurements is very therapeutic for my OCD anal-retentive personality.
The tools that you've picked up will serve you well. A good set of standards is important. I've love to have a custom-made gauge ring set to stock bore, but that is way too expensive for me.
I'm certainly no expert on any of this stuff, but I've discovered that buying cool precision measurement tools and taking lots of intricate measurements is very therapeutic for my OCD anal-retentive personality.
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A setting gauge ring would be the ultimate top-end tool. The Limey here in Austin has one for XS650s. He is really proud of that thing, and now I know why. It takes him about two seconds to set his bore gauge. I'm not sure how he acquired his, except that I think he got it cheap or free. New, I think they are in the $4-500 range.
I'm not seeing the need for a gauge ring. After all, these cylinders all come slightly different sizes from the factory. The "zero" setting you do with a gauge ring most likely isn't going to match them. One thing I have discovered is there's a way to check and verify your micrometer setting. The bottom of the bore is usually unworn because the rings don't go that far down, so it's usually still at that factory spec stenciled on the side of the sleeve. Slide your gauge down there first and it should read zero. If more or less, I would re-check my bore gauge "zeroing". Here's mine at the bottom of a bore .....
After measuring several sets of cylinders, a wear pattern has emerged that I believe to be typical - no wear at the bottom, most wear through the center section, slightly less wear near the top. This makes sense as side forces exerted by the rods are greatest when the piston is lower because the rod is pushing at more of an angle.
The only pain so far is having to do the metric conversions. I found a nice little free program to help though .....
http://vaibhavweb.tripod.com/metric_converter.htm
After measuring several sets of cylinders, a wear pattern has emerged that I believe to be typical - no wear at the bottom, most wear through the center section, slightly less wear near the top. This makes sense as side forces exerted by the rods are greatest when the piston is lower because the rod is pushing at more of an angle.
The only pain so far is having to do the metric conversions. I found a nice little free program to help though .....
http://vaibhavweb.tripod.com/metric_converter.htm
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YL82
Perpetual Restorationist
For the most part, I have seen the same pattern in my measurements.
I've seen some general guidance in the various Manuals as to where to take the bore measurements. The copyright infringment I've attached is of course from Clymer, page 66.
Any advice or rules of thumb on where best and how best to consistently measure at the proper depths and same depths each time? Can't say I really want to start marking spots inside bores.
I've seen some general guidance in the various Manuals as to where to take the bore measurements. The copyright infringment I've attached is of course from Clymer, page 66.
Any advice or rules of thumb on where best and how best to consistently measure at the proper depths and same depths each time? Can't say I really want to start marking spots inside bores.
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I am no machinist.
I have used telescoping gauges in the past to check for out of round etc. tedious but it works.
I bought a Central tool sled gauge and thought the one I bought was useless. I then got a
nice used "Standard" bore gauge 2.12 to 3.12" .0001 And that is the cat's PJs, easy, accurate, and repeatable. I took apart the one I got, cleaned everything and relubed the mechanism with very light grease. I'm in the don't worry about calibration camp, most of what you are doing is wear measurement, IE can I reuse it or do I have to bore it. Like 5T says the wear and egg shape is rather predictable. Zero it at a normal no wear point and see how much it's worn, with some practise you can measure a cylinder in a couple of minutes.
I have used telescoping gauges in the past to check for out of round etc. tedious but it works.
I bought a Central tool sled gauge and thought the one I bought was useless. I then got a
nice used "Standard" bore gauge 2.12 to 3.12" .0001 And that is the cat's PJs, easy, accurate, and repeatable. I took apart the one I got, cleaned everything and relubed the mechanism with very light grease. I'm in the don't worry about calibration camp, most of what you are doing is wear measurement, IE can I reuse it or do I have to bore it. Like 5T says the wear and egg shape is rather predictable. Zero it at a normal no wear point and see how much it's worn, with some practise you can measure a cylinder in a couple of minutes.
I wasn't zeroing it in the bore, I set it with a micrometer then checked that setting by sliding it to the bore bottom. What I was saying is this is a way to check your setting or "zeroing" of the gauge. Set it (zero it) with the micrometer, then slide it down to the bottom of the bore and it should read zero too. If not then you may not have set it right.
Gary, I don't know how many different models Central makes but I think the one I (and Dog Bunny) got works quite well. Is this the one you had?
Gary, I don't know how many different models Central makes but I think the one I (and Dog Bunny) got works quite well. Is this the one you had?
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I really appreciate all of the posts in this thread.
5twins, your post questioning the usefulness of a setting gauge ring was especially illuminating. This is all new to me, but it is beginning to all come together for me.
Here's a quick related question: I am looking at a pair of pistons that I have. One pair has 963 stamped on the crown, so this means 74.963mm. However, the other pair of pistons just has 96 stamped on the crown. Am I supposed to assume that the last number is zero, meaning that the size is 74.960mm?
5twins, your post questioning the usefulness of a setting gauge ring was especially illuminating. This is all new to me, but it is beginning to all come together for me.
Here's a quick related question: I am looking at a pair of pistons that I have. One pair has 963 stamped on the crown, so this means 74.963mm. However, the other pair of pistons just has 96 stamped on the crown. Am I supposed to assume that the last number is zero, meaning that the size is 74.960mm?
I would think so. Measure it with your new micrometer and see. I assume it's used so it will be a bit smaller, probably in the mid 950s somewhere. The shop manual explains how and where to measure them but basically, you measure front to back 10mm up from the bottom with a micrometer, or I suppose you could use a caliper too. Now that you have the micrometer, I think you're going to find it easier to use and more accurate in places you can use it compared to a caliper.
Wow, fussing over 3 microns, and I thought I had OCD!
Just a historical perspective, kinda like explaining flintlock maintenance to an ICBM crew:
Back in the day, the vast majority of the bore jobs we got were no-brainers. The cylinders were either scratched, scored, skunged (like from broken rod or valve), heavily scraped, and/or had aluminum welded on the walls. Others (comparatively few) were just overbores (I want it bigger so I can go fast!), or resleeved, or big-bore. Used a mitutoyo inside guage to get initial value to judge salvagability of the jug. Spent lotsa time getting boring bars calibrated, bits properly ground. Once the boring bars were set, would always bore slightly under, then use sunnen sizing hone to finish, always final checking with long/thin feeler guages. This was when rings were still predominately iron, thick, often with 1-piece oil-rings. The customer base was also more abusive, environment hot and punishing, and a flood of lubricant propaganda dominated. Slick50 was highly touted, but it's teflon additive acted like a heat blanket, and many pistons gave their lives in their heat-soaked environment.
It would have been nice to have those new/cool/precision guages back then, but our situation was more like combat conditions than like precision target shooting.
If you want to get even less sleep, study-up on the tapered cylinder criteria used on air-cooled aircraft engines. I've often wondered if somebody has applied that to air-cooled motorcycle engines. Wish you could've been there in the early days while folks were sorting-out/arguing over torque plates.
Attached is a pic representative of the simple tool(s) used back then, the larger guages represent what was used to set the cutting depth on a kwikway, the Van Norman had a separate hand-held bit-set guage, not shown.
Just a historical perspective, kinda like explaining flintlock maintenance to an ICBM crew:
Back in the day, the vast majority of the bore jobs we got were no-brainers. The cylinders were either scratched, scored, skunged (like from broken rod or valve), heavily scraped, and/or had aluminum welded on the walls. Others (comparatively few) were just overbores (I want it bigger so I can go fast!), or resleeved, or big-bore. Used a mitutoyo inside guage to get initial value to judge salvagability of the jug. Spent lotsa time getting boring bars calibrated, bits properly ground. Once the boring bars were set, would always bore slightly under, then use sunnen sizing hone to finish, always final checking with long/thin feeler guages. This was when rings were still predominately iron, thick, often with 1-piece oil-rings. The customer base was also more abusive, environment hot and punishing, and a flood of lubricant propaganda dominated. Slick50 was highly touted, but it's teflon additive acted like a heat blanket, and many pistons gave their lives in their heat-soaked environment.
It would have been nice to have those new/cool/precision guages back then, but our situation was more like combat conditions than like precision target shooting.
If you want to get even less sleep, study-up on the tapered cylinder criteria used on air-cooled aircraft engines. I've often wondered if somebody has applied that to air-cooled motorcycle engines. Wish you could've been there in the early days while folks were sorting-out/arguing over torque plates.
Attached is a pic representative of the simple tool(s) used back then, the larger guages represent what was used to set the cutting depth on a kwikway, the Van Norman had a separate hand-held bit-set guage, not shown.
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YL82
Perpetual Restorationist
I appreciate you giving this some perspective and providing some very interesting historical information.
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Here's the gauges I have. The Central is available...
cost me $60 make an offer?
cost me $60 make an offer?
YL82
Perpetual Restorationist
That reminds me: I think I'll be unloading my relatively new Mitutoyo Telescoping Gauge (2.25"-3.5") on eBay ... or on this Site. Great tool, I just lack the skill to use it properly.
I got them last winter, I had a "decent looking" used cylinder and a new big bore cylinder to measure and mess with. I will have to repeat the measuring I guess. I bought that Central first and was unhappy so I kept looking and bought the "real bore gauge". 6 months later I can't tell you what bugged me so much..... I do have a little project idea that the Central gauge would work for, report to follow later.
"One of these days" I'm going to get serious about doing engines.
"One of these days" I'm going to get serious about doing engines.
YL82
Perpetual Restorationist
Are there any measurement tool experts out there who how to set up Digital Electronic Bore Gauges in different ways to check cylinder bores?
I bought a digital gauge off of Ebay (Anytime Tool Brand, presumably Chinese) to use with my PhaseII gauge handle, anvils, etc. It cost about $70. Seems rather well made. Operating instructions are for shit. That or my level of comprehension is....
The way (I believe its called Relative Mode) I've used the gauge thus far is to Zero (depress Zero button) the gauge when contact points are in between an outside mic locked in at 75.004mm (2.9529"). Rocking gauge back and forth in cylinder at the measurement point, I then take the difference then add that to the stock bore value.
What I'd like to know how to do (can't quite grasp manual instructions) is to set up the instrument in Absolute Mode where I believe you enter the stock bore value (2.9529" in my case).
I believe there are other ways in which to set up this type gauge for cylinder bore measurement. I'm comfortable with my measurements at this point, so this is more of a question about learning the capabilities of the instrument. The dial bore gauge is certainly easier to set up and interpret. There's alot to be said about watching needle movement and interpreting it over that of a digital display (although my instrument has a moving arc that gives in analog fashion the position of the probe relative to zero).
Note: On my digital bore gauge, the MIN button is also known as the RAN button (for mininum range) and the ABS button can also be called the ABS/SET button.
If anybody can provide some simple, step by step instructions for setting up this type gauge in different way to accomplish the same goal (cylinder bore measurement), that would be great. Video tutorials would be even cooler.
There is also a Tolerance Mode where you can set upper and lower limits to see whether you are within those limits or outside of them. Not sure I need this for cylinder bore measurement, but perhaps for measuring brake disc (rotor) runout.
I bought a digital gauge off of Ebay (Anytime Tool Brand, presumably Chinese) to use with my PhaseII gauge handle, anvils, etc. It cost about $70. Seems rather well made. Operating instructions are for shit. That or my level of comprehension is....
The way (I believe its called Relative Mode) I've used the gauge thus far is to Zero (depress Zero button) the gauge when contact points are in between an outside mic locked in at 75.004mm (2.9529"). Rocking gauge back and forth in cylinder at the measurement point, I then take the difference then add that to the stock bore value.
What I'd like to know how to do (can't quite grasp manual instructions) is to set up the instrument in Absolute Mode where I believe you enter the stock bore value (2.9529" in my case).
I believe there are other ways in which to set up this type gauge for cylinder bore measurement. I'm comfortable with my measurements at this point, so this is more of a question about learning the capabilities of the instrument. The dial bore gauge is certainly easier to set up and interpret. There's alot to be said about watching needle movement and interpreting it over that of a digital display (although my instrument has a moving arc that gives in analog fashion the position of the probe relative to zero).
Note: On my digital bore gauge, the MIN button is also known as the RAN button (for mininum range) and the ABS button can also be called the ABS/SET button.
If anybody can provide some simple, step by step instructions for setting up this type gauge in different way to accomplish the same goal (cylinder bore measurement), that would be great. Video tutorials would be even cooler.
There is also a Tolerance Mode where you can set upper and lower limits to see whether you are within those limits or outside of them. Not sure I need this for cylinder bore measurement, but perhaps for measuring brake disc (rotor) runout.
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