damnit- so close but yet so far. kickstart issue

[sbaugz]

Almost done with this damn bike after a complete rebuild and cafe conversion. I was having a slipping electric starter so I did the mod where I closed down the electric starter spring and then reassembled the right side cover. Prior to doing the mod, the kickstarter was working fine.
Fast forward to now. I am dinking around with switching out my clutch cable so I currently have the left side cover and clutch cable off bike. Its in neutral. When I try to use kickstarter there is no longer any resistance and it just goes down without turning over bike. I was able to start the bike up using the electric starter though. Did I do something to the kickstarter mechanism when I did the electric starter mod? I can't see how I would have since I didn't even touch the kickstarter mechanism. Or will the kickstarter not work with the left side cover, clutch cover, and worm gear mechanism all removed? I hope I don't have to remove the damn right cover again- its been like 4 times in the past 3 days.

 

[ANLAF]

Need a little more info, sbaugz.
As I read it you've had the right-hand cover off. Well, the received wisdom on this one is removal of that cover with caution! It sounds as if you have disturbed the kickstart mechanism, so come on sbaugz, any hint of what you did will be helpful - did the kickstart shaft come out at all? did the kickstart spring come off?
And what exactly was the mod you did? - did you remove the starter and any of the gearing in there?If you are sure you haven't moved anything kickstarter-ish we can go on to look at what you've taken off on the left-hand side and the state of your clutch.

Anlaf

 

[ANLAF]

Oh, and gbaugz, you say when you kick it the kickstarter goes down - does it come back up again, and if so what is the sound it makes down and then up?

Anlaf

 

[sbaugz]

I took right hand cover off. I was very careful and the kickstarter did not come off or back out - i was careful because I have done this in past.

The mod I did involved removing clutch plates, removing the electric starter gears up front and then putting the large clip in a vice to compress it down some. Then I reinstalled the electric starter gears, the clutch plate and backing plates, and placed the side cover back on. I am fairly confident that I did not back out the kickstarter.

Then, I removed left hand cover, clutch cable and foot shifter. The clutch bar is still inside case.

As far as the kickstarter itself- yes it springs back. The only noise it makes is some clicking inside right case. The pistons do not move up and down from what I can hear or tell. There is very little resistance and it springs back up.

 

[ANLAF]

Okay, let me get the picture (correct me if I am wrong) -
you have the plugs out and depress the kicker and
(a) you hear the pistons rise and fall, or
(b) you do not hear them rise and fall - nothing at all from in there.

If it is (a) the thing is working, so a mystery to be solved
If it is (b) we should be looking towards the clutch and something holding open the clutch (say, tighening up on the disc-ended part of the pushrod or something even more simple).
Also if it is (b) we should be looking at a failure of the kickstart mechanism itself (or part of it, say a spring), or a mal-adjustment (it moved).

Anlaf

 

[ANLAF]

Just thinking aloud, it is likely to be the clutch.

1. Did you line up the indexer marks?

2. Have any pushrod, bearings, etc come out on the left-hand side?

Anlaf

 

[sbaugz]

Okay, let me get the picture (correct me if I am wrong) -
you have the plugs out and depress the kicker and
(a) you hear the pistons rise and fall, or
(b) you do not hear them rise and fall - nothing at all from in there.

If it is (a) the thing is working, so a mystery to be solved
If it is (b) we should be looking towards the clutch and something holding open the clutch (say, tighening up on the disc-ended part of the pushrod or something even more simple).
Also if it is (b) we should be looking at a failure of the kickstart mechanism itself (or part of it, say a spring), or a mal-adjustment (it moved).

Anlaf

B is the answer. Pistons are not moving. Not likely a kickstarter failure because that is new too. I probably screwed something up with the clutch when I reinstalled it. Will have to search around here for some pics on how to reassemble it or I will check out service manual.
I have no idea about lining up the indexer as you mention so that probably has something to do with it too.
I will pull off right cover and check everything over with the clutch reassembly that I did.
Thanks for help

 

[ANLAF]

Looks like another trip into the right-hand side for you. Check out my threads for clutch dismantling/reassembly tips and the index marker. They guys came up with some great advice all the way through - and failure to line up those index markers (hole must line up with mark as you will see) is a very likely source of a number of issues that have come up in various threads.

Check out the friction plate width, marks on steel plates, the correct order and placements of the washers, bearing and spacers, and the pushrods.

Anlaf

 

[sbaugz]

Looks like another trip into the right-hand side for you. Check out my threads for clutch dismantling/reassembly tips and the index marker. They guys came up with some great advice all the way through - and failure to line up those index markers (hole must line up with mark as you will see) is a very likely source of a number of issues that have come up in various threads.

Check out the friction plate width, marks on steel plates, the correct order and placements of the washers, bearing and spacers, and the pushrods.

Anlaf

Thanks man
Appreciate the help

 

[ANLAF]

Here are the indexer marks.

And the problem is likely to be the clutch is stuck open for one reason or another.

Let me know when you find the cause and we can pas sit on.

Anlaf

 

[sbaugz]

Thanks for the pics and advice regarding yours clutch post

Here are some pics of my right side after removing cover, for the fifth time this week.
Let me know if you see anything funky





Starter gears


Kickstarter looks to be alright



Let me know what you think of this. Took cover off this last time and noticed a notch ground into inside of side cover. This wasn't there the last time I removed. Hopefully I didn't screw something up with clutch.

 

[weaselbeak]

Is the bike sitting straight up when you are kicking it? Sounds strange, but my son's XS has a quirk in it, it only engages when the bike is tilted to the left. Otherwise, it's like yours. We haven't gotten into it yet, but try leaning the bike and see if it catches.

 

[sbaugz]

Is the bike sitting straight up when you are kicking it? Sounds strange, but my son's XS has a quirk in it, it only engages when the bike is tilted to the left. Otherwise, it's like yours. We haven't gotten into it yet, but try leaning the bike and see if it catches.

Tried it straight up and leaning and same resuls. It worked fine until I messed around with clutch plates so I'm starting over with clutch re installation

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

I can't see if the kickstart drag clip arm is in its slot.

Like ANLAF sez, improper indexing of the clutch pressure plate may cause it to set too far outward, creating those scratch marks on the inside right cover...

 

[ANLAF]

Well spotted, TwoMany. Something hasn't been seating right.
Did you take a photo of the clutch assembly before you removed, or can you take one before you pull it apart.?

Anlaf

 

[ANLAF]

It might be helpful to have a photo of the clutch basket from the the side so we can see if the plates are stuck open or in any way distorted - that's not easy to the naked eye but there may be something obvious.

Also, make a mental note of the tension of those six clutch bolts - they should all six sit firmly on the their sleeves; they can't be tightened further without some distortion occurring, and something has caused the scratching on the inside of the cover.

When you take the clutch apart check to see if the indexer marks line up. If they don't you may have found the problem but don't assume so.

Oh, and the steel plates - do the holding-them-against-a-window test to check if they are flat and true.

Anlaf

 

[sbaugz]

I can't see if the kickstart drag clip arm is in its slot.

Like ANLAF sez, improper indexing of the clutch pressure plate may cause it to set too far outward, creating those scratch marks on the inside right cover...

Kickstart drag clip is in its spot.

I already removed clutch basket so I can't take pictures but it was not indexed properly so hopefully that is problem. Would that cause kickstarter to not work though?

 

[ANLAF]

If the clutch is not assemble correctly it will act (if it is remaining open) just like you try to kick if you have the clutch lever pulled in - that's no resistance on the kickstarter going down (but it springs back into place).

it is very likely the indexer marks, but you should do all the other checks - you don't want a sixth time in there.

Anlaf

 

[sbaugz]

Problem solved. Bike is back together and kickstarter works, clutch seems to be ok.
Pretty sure I didn't have the tabs lined up on clutch plates

Thanks for help!

 

[ANLAF]

That's a result. Those index markers are really important, and so easy to miss.

Enjoy the bike, and post some photos of it all back together.

Anlaf