dang it! filings in side filter

[angus67]

Since ive been running my 71 for a little bit, I decided to pull the side filter. Aluminum fillings. not a lot, but too much. When I worked on this bike 4 years ago, I cleaned it then, then the previous owner just shoved it back in the shed, so it only has a few miles since then. Now its my problem....
So I just spent a couple hundy's for a new cam chain, new chain blade, head gasket, and some other odds and ends.
when the parts get here, and the motor is out, I will take lots of pics, and do a though check on this motor. peeking in the cylinder, I think I read .25 on the top of the piston. previous owner said he had rebuilt the top end, then shoved it in a shed since 1992. so all might be good.
xsjohn once suggested to putting a tablespoon of baking soda in the cylinders, one at a time, to help deglaze the cylinders, and free up the rings, and reseat the rings after a engine sits for a long time, ever heard of that?
Might as well get the crank pins welded. I can tig weld, but its been 7 years since I last did it. heat control may be an issue.

 

[wally_nd]

I have heard of baking soda used as an abrasive to help seat rings when you can't use a hone to rough up the cylinder walls. I don't believe it will free up the rings if they are stuck in the ring grooves in the piston. might as well get a base gasket and pull the jugs if you are already taking the engine out and removing the head.. IDK just my $.02.

 

[chizler62]

Why would you weld the crank pins?

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[tonyc]

So the crank will not spread. If you plan to run in the upper rpm range it is a good idea.

 

[angus67]

I would just weld it just for security.
base gasket. I knew I was forgetting something. I think I have everything else. I have a near complete Athena kit. I used the head gasket and base gaskets for a ring job on a different bike.

 

[chizler62]

Are the XS650 cranks know to spin? How many have you know about?

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[gggGary]

Hey one possibility since it sounds like a don' know much top job was done. If the cam wasn't centered in the bearings, the cam chain could be rubbing somewhere.

 

[650Skull]

Not advisable to over rev the earlier motor with the 22mm wrist pins. Early motors did have a rep for breaking little ends and the rods would come out the front for some air.

If you really think you need to weld the crank then just tack it in 3 places around the pin and try not to get to much heat into it, (i know its an oxymoron, can't weld without heat), watch out for pulling. If you get it out of true from welding it's gonna be a bitch to grind out and redo.

Hugh learned the hard way, remember reading on his blog, (while back), how he wrecked a few cranks before learning how to weld them properly.

I believe there are 3 main things that make a crank walk.

1; Rebuilt engine and the crank reassembly didn't require the proper tonnage, (worn pins from to may re-assemblies), and the pins were not replaced or welded

2; Thrashing the bike, wheel-stands, (trying), and dropping the clutch racing, over revving. Class these things under one aspect.

3; Over powered engine. usually means racing or dropping clutch and over revving again.

 

[650Skull]

xsjohn once suggested to putting a tablespoon of baking soda in the cylinders, one at a time, to help deglaze the cylinders, and free up the rings, and reseat the rings after a engine sits for a long time, ever heard of that?
Might as well get the crank pins welded. I can tig weld, but its been 7 years since I last did it. heat control may be an issue.

If i remember XSjohn done that to an engine when the rings hadn't set after a rebuild

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

Check around the cam area where that valve adjuster nut came loose.
Also, check the top of the camchain tunnel bridge, between the cylinders, directly across from the tensioner sprocket...

 

[5twins]

I think if the cam wasn't centered, one of the points/advance housings wouldn't fit tight enough to the head and it would leak oil like crazy.

What you found may be normal break-in debris. I think these are a rather crude motor. It took several thousands of miles and many filter cleanings before my filters finally started coming out relatively clean. Obviously, much was build-up due to P.O. neglect, but I think some was still break-in of all the parts.

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

Boy, took a while to find this. Angus, when you get yours opened up, have a look at the bridge in the cylinder's camchain tunnel. See if there's any camchain sawing going on there, where the tensioner's sprocket pushes against the camchain. Good source of aluminum flakes...

View attachment 27273

 

[pamcopete]

angus,

It could be that those filings have been there for a while, trapped on the other side of the sump filter, which could now have a hole in it allowing the particles to get up to the side filter. I would have a look at the sump filter before I tore the engine down. I went through something similar with my trusty '78/E. There was a hole in the sump filter. I replaced the sump filter and put 80,000 miles on the engine. Very difficult to kill these engines.

 

[CDNTX650]

I wouldn't weld that crank. For normal conditions and driving.

I would do a few oil changes worth of driving before I tore into it. Why spend the cash if it might not be needed.

 

[angus67]

Thanx, pete will do. But I did already buy gasket kit for the rebuild. I will check the lower filter. This bike dosnt like to start with out the throttle cracked a little(too rich?), so sudden cold oil pressure into the lower filter equals ripped filter. I hope so. I do some times hear a strange clattering, kind of random noise in the front/top of the engine though.
Skull, it will be a casual rider. nothing spirited. As I see it, this bike is a driveable museum piese. Ive got my chop for fun, and my Suzuki for long rides.
5T, it doesn't leak. I just pulled my advance rod today for lubing, dry as a desert.
Twomany, there wasn't a lot of damage were that adjuster settled in. You can see the thread marks, but no chew marks.
gggary, that is definitely a possibility. Its kind of the driving force behind a rebuild. Ide like to look at the guts just to be comfortable.

 

[kopcicle]

remember a conversation we had about early crank counterweighting coming loose ?

~kop

 

[angus67]

yep......

 

[pamcopete]

Angus67,

There is a "catch 22" to the sump screen. If it has a hole, then junk from the sump will show up in the filter. If it does not have a hole, then the junk will not be noticed. If the hole developed recently, then there will be a lot of junk, but most of it dates back to the original factory junk and is "normal". If the hole has been there for some time, then the junk has already been removed from the filter without any particular alarm because it is gradual.

It's almost as if you would be better off with the hole in the sump screen so you can see recent junk in the filter and analyse accordingly, but that might damage the oil pump, but the oil pump is easy to replace.

Then we have the question of the by pass valve for the oil filter. If there is junk in the oil that plugs up the filter, the by pass valve is supposed to let the oil, and junk, into the engine so the engine isn't without oil, but what's the use of oil in the engine with junk in it? I removed my by pass valve and plugged the opening, but to do that, you have to have a oil pressure gauge so you can see if the filter gets plugged, so I did that. My theory also means that if the pressure valve opens routinely with a cold start, thick oil, then that would increase the flow of oil through the sump screen, holing it. So, I put 80,000 miles on my trusty '78u/E with a new old style sump screen without the by pass valve and inspected it every year. No hole. But , I was also careful to warm the engine up with low revs before riding, so was it the warm up procedure or the missing bypass valve that protected the sump screen?

I think it was the missing bypass valve, because soon after removing it, there were no more elephants in the trees.

 

[pamcopete]

As a follow up to my somewhat facetious post, above, I would assume that the sump screen is holed and clean up the junk in the filter but not replace the sump screen. Run the engine some more and see if more junk shows up. If none or very little junk shows up, it probably means that the hole in the sump screen was recent and you just got all the accumulated junk prior to the hole. If a lot of junk shows up of a similar nature to the original junk, then you have a hole in the sump screen but you also have an internal engine problem that continues to make junk.

 

[angus67]

Thanks Pete. It didn't seem fasetiuos at all