HELP!!! I broke it!!! Won't start. Warning LONG!!!

[peanut]

Gordon, those pictures are nasty indeed. Yes, lapping valve seats is for minor clean-up, but yours appear to need machining.

This is a classic example of why 40 year old engines need to come apart for maintenance.

What was it that peanuts said, oh here I found it............ "imo were ill advised to unnecessarily strip your engine"

I guess peanut has to eat some humble pie.

not at all retired genleman ....not at all.

We had no way of knowing that the engine would be in that condition before it was stripped.
The engine may have turned out to be quite acceptable as was my engine. it is a lottery .

You can't expect everyone to strip their engine when they buy a bike just because they don't know the History of it.

The fact that you still seem unable to grasp my dear fellow is that none of what you see in the images would prevent the engine starting and running . Indeed if you read Gordon's original post and actually addressed his question as I did then you would not have suggested he strip his engine in order to get it started.

I've had it a little over a month and within that time, I've put a little over 50 trouble free miles,

Your suggeston to get it started was ...let me see ...oh yes here it is .
'I recommend you buy a single dual output coil ......you would be much better off with a Pamco, unless you enjoy fidling with points.'

Gordon has still not found the reason the engine would not start .Like a few others on here you seem more interested in scoring points against those who you don't like than you are in actually helping people.You are a troll
That is the kind of person I have found you to be ! fortunately your type are in the minority

 

[peanut]

Oh, he'll never admit he was wrong, lol. He knows what he knows and there's no convincing him otherwise.

we all know youre the resident 'expert' on here 5twins and you are never wrong are you .Clearly you believe that everybody should accept your view and not have one of their own
Pity we can't all be 100% right all of the the time like you are .

I stand by my diagnosis 5twins because I have 50 years experience that tells me I am right about this and you and retired gentleman are wrong.



You cannot get zero compression on any engine with a bit of rust and crud on the valve seats.

If you had actually read the original post properly you would have seen that the bloody engine actually started and run for 50 miles

That is the information that I based my advice on because that is all I had. If I had a crystal ball like RT then I would have suggested Gordon strip and rebuild his engine but I don't possess one.

 

[650Skull]

 

[retiredgentleman]

peanut;

In post # 77, you said " I'll not waste my time further .", but here you are back again, wasting more time.

Another of your quotes "You can't expect everyone to strip their engine when they buy a bike just because they don't know the History of it."

Actually that is the best choice. Anyone buying a 40 year old engine, of unknown history, that has sat for 30 years, should without hesitation, perform a top-end rebuild. All rubber parts such as oil seals, valve stem seals, etc. are garbage after that time. Valve springs may also be sagged.

It's obvious that Gordon enjoys working on mechanical things such as engines, and is taking this opportunity to learn all about the internals of the XS650 engine. This is his hobby and his fun. For you to suggest that Gordon has no ability to adjust valve clearances or use a compression gauge, comes off as insulting, and inflammatory.

I suggest you take your own advice, and no longer post anymore of your rude,insulting comments.

 

[NONclow]

IMHO, There's never enough time to do it right, but always time to do it again!!!

.....Riding my Ninja back from Portland one time (after oh, I'd say at least 500 miles of local roads after reinstalling the motor [the PO removed it to change the starter clutch.....and yes, there was alot of push starting]) I noticed a slight hiccup and power was reduced, maybe only 1-5%, but noticible--And kept runninng, all the way home--. Alas, the next morning it would NOT start.....for ANYTHING! Boosted/jumped battery, starting fluid, coast down really long hill. Nothing. Pulled motor, then head, to find ALL 8 intake valves, for 39,xxx miles had hammered the hardened seats so bad the valve faces wereworn to the extent they were sucking into the head decreasing valve lash!! Seats were acceptable, so in went 8 new valves, lapped them all, now my odo has 63,xxx and still climbing!

If them valves aren't functioning PROPERLY I would rather pull it apart, clean it, and replace some gaskets THAN break loose a bunch of hard carbon to get stuck in ring grooves, valve seats or anything else close by.

 

[member3480]

You know it doesn't matter who's right or wrong but pictures don't lie and that head needs to go to a machine shop. I don't care how long you lap them now until next year there is way too much damage on those seats to correctly seal. If I get one even close to that I cut them and have the valves cut and matched. That motor sat a long time with condensation to build up that much rust. That's a TRUE 30 year old motor. There's no body on here better than another we are all old farts that have been building motors for a very long time. Just give the kid the right direction to go and he will learn and be fine.

 

[5twins]

You'd think a guy with 50 years experience would know a motor like that wouldn't run, or run for long (as happened). I will admit I was wrong about that, lol. I suffered the effects of a low compression motor many years ago. The bike was very hard to start and eventually wouldn't start at all when the compression dropped too low. A topend refurb fixed it right up. It became a one or two kick starter and still is to this day.

 

[retiredgentleman]

Yes, with 4 stroke engines, ensuring that the valves are sealing 100% is fundamental to a engine that starts well and runs well. When anyone gets an unknown old bike, a compression test with a proper gauge is mandatory.

Not referring to Gordon's bike, but in general examples, I see guys coming on this site, who have just bought a 30+ year old bike (having sat for the last 20+ years), and plan to change the oil,oil filter, plugs and put in a new battery, and then drive it to work everyday. Yes, it might happen occasionally, but most old bikes will require top end work. That's why there's such a thing as a Service Manual.

Anyone that doesn't want to do top end work, should buy bikes that are less than 10 years old, with reasonable milage, of which there are plenty.

 

[Gordon in nc]

<snip>just give the kid the right direction to go and he will learn and be fine.

I can't wait till my oldest see's this.....he'll get a good laugh out of it. He's only 46 but then again my dad is still kicking at 93.....to him I'll always be a kid.

I've said it before....I'll be fine, the bike will be fine....it's only a motorcycle...mine's an old junky one at that....nothing to get in a twist over.

Finished up at work and I'm headed home.....gona pull my bone stock 1967 BSA B44VR w/Velorex chair attached (sub frame and set up.. by me) out tomorrow morning and go for a LONG ride.....I need it to clear my head and remind myself how long I've been in this hobby (since 1968) and how much I enjoy it.

Retiredgentleman......I had you pegged all wrong and I'm sorry for that. You sir are on my "good guy" list. IOU and maybe one of these days our paths will cross and I can try to repay you.

Remind me to tell you fellows a little story about how and who rasied me.....and where I got my hankering to wrench and..... my love for old motorcycles

Take care fellows......it's just motorcycles....Gordon

 

[pamcopete]

What's going on here? Some of my favorite people are taking shots at each other. I can only guess that it's cabin fever. Time to shake hands and refocus on the problem at hand.

 

[Gordon in nc]

<snip> Time to shake hands and refocus on the problem at hand.

Maybe this will help you would think by now I'd know better than to hang my dirty laundry out for all to see but heck....photobucket let me so here goes.

a little under 30 mins with 280 grit lapping compound

The same exhaust valve in my other photo's

Everything is still very dirty and the plug threads need to be chased but I'll get to that later this weekend.

You boys have at it......I'm a big boy and I can take it.

Gordon in NC

1975 XS 650B parts on the way
1975 XS 650B parts in a pile
and a few LOVED BSA unit singles...I'm taking one of them on a long morning ride tomorrow life is good

 

[5twins]

Those look like they cleaned up and lapped in nicely. Let me pass along a little tip I got from my dealer many years ago. When lapping valves, start with a coarse compound and finish with a fine one. It will save lots of time, cleaning the rough pitting up much faster.

It just so happened that when I bought my lapping compound at the auto parts store, it was a dual or double container. It had fine compound in one end of the can and coarse in the other .....

The first time I lapped valves, I was scared to use the coarse for fear of removing too much material. One of the valves I was doing had one small persistent leak I couldn't get to seal with the fine compound, even after 3 or 4 tries. I finally gave up and assembled the motor. The following season, I was into that cylinder again for something else and decided to check that valve. It still leaked as before. I was hoping it might have pounded itself sealed but no such luck. The previous summer was when I had talked with my dealer and gotten the coarse compound tip. I gave it a whirl and that pesky leak sealed right up.

That double container I got is still available but it's plastic now and about half the size. Of course it costs more too, lol .....

http://www.amazon.com/CTA-2219-Coarse-Lapping-Compound/dp/B00FPVYYG0

But, considering the small amounts you use, it's still probably more than a lifetime supply .....

 

[Gordon in nc]

5twins, you really do have the best photos.

The head, valves and seats look a LOT better this afternoon after some more work. I just did a quick lap (not completed) to show they were okay.....I'll admit they aren't new but l should get a few miles out of these.

I've always had good results with 280 grit. I "guess" you would consider it "medium/fine"....but at the medium end of that scale. I can get it from 80 to 1200.....but in all these years and valves...the 280 has worked "okay" for me.

Key word here is "okay"...I don't want to spend $2500 on a $1000 motorcycle. I have to many other projects waiting their turn. I'd just like to button this bike back up and ride it a bit. I'm easy on my bikes......I'm the ONLY one who fixes them so I have to be.

I'll finish the prep up tomorrow and be ready for the parts to get here first of the week.

I think I have our computer problems sorted out....so photos to follow.

Take care.........and thanks for the help.....your one of the good guys in my book.

Gordon in NC

1975 XS650B almost ready to put back together
1975 XS650B a pile of parts
and a few BSA unit singles.....one of which took me 150 miles today....60 of that on the Blue Ridge Parkway and the rest on some really nice twisty roads...you gota love living at the foot of the mountains.

 

[5twins]

As far as valve lapping compounds go, I think 280 is considered a fine, even though you can get much finer. But you'd be turning that stick for like a week if all you had was 800 or 1000, lol. According to this link, my dual container has 280 and 120 .....

http://www.cylinderheadsupply.com/clovercompound1.html

I can easily see the difference in the finish the two grits give. I do most of the work with the coarse, then a quick lap with the fine to smooth the finish out. I'm quite happy with the results I get.

 

[member3480]

Gordon after all the work done which looks good Please still do a leak down test. Don't use gas use something a little heavier to test to see if it seals 80%.
Nice work

 

[Gordon in nc]

Gordon after all the work done which looks good Please still do a leak down test. Don't use gas use something a little heavier to test to see if it seals 80%.
Nice work

DADDYG.......what's a little heavier???? K1 ???? I love learning new stuff. I've always used gas but I'm willing to try something new.

It's spring and the white line's calling.

Gordon in NC

 

[5twins]

I've always used kerosene. It's easier on the hands and much less flammable. I also use it as my main degreaser and parts cleaner.

 

[fredintoon]

DADDYG.......what's a little heavier???? K1 ???? I love learning new stuff. I've always used gas but I'm willing to try something new.

It's spring and the white line's calling.

Gordon in NC

Hi Gordon,
Mr Ignorant tried looking up K1 but I doubt it's either the Vitamin or the kickboxing association, eh?
But I'd suppose that DaddyG meant a liquid that's thicker not heavier.
Say, flushing oil?
And Saskatoon's white lines are still un-melted snow streaks, dammit!

 

[retiredgentleman]

Gordon;

The valve lapping is working out quite well for you

I had to go and take a look in my work area, but I found that the lapping compound I used, was 120 coarse and 280 fine. As I remember, I think I spent equal time with both grades.

I used paint thinner solvent for the leak test, IIRC.

I guess the proof is how the engine runs, and I've been happy for 8 years now.

 

[Gordon in nc]

I've always used kerosene. It's easier on the hands and much less flammable. I also use it as my main degreaser and parts cleaner.

5twins.....I hate the smell of kerosene. I'm in commercial construction (Field Superintendent) and we use it in our heaters.....ugh.

BUT....I'll give something else other than gas a try to see how it goes. The head will pass a leak test one way or the other before it goes back on the engine and the engine will have good compression before it goes back in the frame......you can take that to the bank.

Fred my new friend...K1 is kerosene. Hope your snow melts soon and you get all the riding in you want....take care.

Retired.....you were right 100% when you said I needed to go into the top end. I knew better but tried it anyway. Now that I've taken two of these XS's top ends off....it's a snap and when I get time....I'm going to split the cases on the parts engine just to see what that's like. You're also right again.....the proof is how well the engine runs when I get it back together.

Photos to follow......happy easter fellows....

Gordon in NC