Johnt3
Still learning...
langheldphoto, Hi man. I don't want to jump in the middle of this, but I looked at your video and was wondering if you have installed your clutch side cover with the gasket in place?
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Help please another noob with clutch issues
- Thread starter langheldphoto
- Start date
That was thorough. That crack doesn't look good. Any chance of finding another cover nearby to see if that makes the difference? I suppose it's possible the powder coat oven got hot enough to overage the aluminum but a quick look says 400 degrees probably wouldn't overage aluminum. The early bikes spec a bearing between the cover and kick start, seems like I remember that washer bearing even in a 82 I recently pulled but I guess I don't see how the bearing NOT being there would cause binding. wonder if there is any chance someone filed away enough of the gasket surface to cause the binding. I guess checking with a different cover is the next step. You could put the cover on a flat plate see if it is flat. plate glass mirrors are normally pretty flat.
You're not installing the kick starter shaft correctly. When you say the shaft is fully pushed in, its not. In the video, when you wind the spring, the shaft is not fully inward. You have to index the shaft to the correct rotary position before it will go fully inward.
Forget about using a cable tie, and try using my method.
Do this with the side cover off. Hook the return spring over its anchor point, and the drag clip in its proper position in the slot in the engine case (at the bottom). Install the kick start lever with it pointing straight up at the 12:00 position.
Push inward on the kick starter shaft, and at the same time rotate the kick start lever from the 12:00 position to about the 7:00 position. When you have rotated to the correct position, you will feel the kick starter/shaft move inward. Its now at the correct pre-tensioned position. I can't recall if its 8:00 or even 6:00, but when you get to the correct position the shaft will move inward. The amount it moves will be about the width of the "stop" on the innner part of the shaft.
Remove the kick start lever carefully so that the kick start shaft is not moved from its position. If the shaft moves, you have to start over. Now install the side cover, and re-install the kick lever at 12:00 position.
Forget about using a cable tie, and try using my method.
Do this with the side cover off. Hook the return spring over its anchor point, and the drag clip in its proper position in the slot in the engine case (at the bottom). Install the kick start lever with it pointing straight up at the 12:00 position.
Push inward on the kick starter shaft, and at the same time rotate the kick start lever from the 12:00 position to about the 7:00 position. When you have rotated to the correct position, you will feel the kick starter/shaft move inward. Its now at the correct pre-tensioned position. I can't recall if its 8:00 or even 6:00, but when you get to the correct position the shaft will move inward. The amount it moves will be about the width of the "stop" on the innner part of the shaft.
Remove the kick start lever carefully so that the kick start shaft is not moved from its position. If the shaft moves, you have to start over. Now install the side cover, and re-install the kick lever at 12:00 position.
langheldphoto
XS650 Enthusiast
RG, I will definately give that a shot. Do you rotate in a clockwise or counter-clockwise direction?
And nah I cant find a cover anywhere near me. The only ones I have found have been on ebay and they are all waaayyy more than i would have ever thought they should be. I will absolutely check it on a piece of glass and see if it is warped. What "bearing" are you talking about? I never saw one when I removed the cover.
Hopefully RG's instructions are all that is needed. Thanks for all the quick reply's
And to answer the first question... no i have not bothered putting the clutch cover on yet... Would that effect anything? Given that clutch is not necessary to kickstart the engine i wouldn't imagine it could be causing me this problem... Could it? Hopefully once this is figured out the clutch adjustment will be much easier to figure out. Pretty sure I just hooked the cable to the wrong part of the worm gear.
Finally, Thank you all once again so much. This forum has by far been the best resource for information, and all of you "Guru's" knowledge is much appreciated. Now if only i could convince Hugh to make me one of those hydraulic clutch conversions I would be set.... (cough.... cough.... Hugh?)
And nah I cant find a cover anywhere near me. The only ones I have found have been on ebay and they are all waaayyy more than i would have ever thought they should be. I will absolutely check it on a piece of glass and see if it is warped. What "bearing" are you talking about? I never saw one when I removed the cover.
Hopefully RG's instructions are all that is needed. Thanks for all the quick reply's
And to answer the first question... no i have not bothered putting the clutch cover on yet... Would that effect anything? Given that clutch is not necessary to kickstart the engine i wouldn't imagine it could be causing me this problem... Could it? Hopefully once this is figured out the clutch adjustment will be much easier to figure out. Pretty sure I just hooked the cable to the wrong part of the worm gear.
Finally, Thank you all once again so much. This forum has by far been the best resource for information, and all of you "Guru's" knowledge is much appreciated. Now if only i could convince Hugh to make me one of those hydraulic clutch conversions I would be set.... (cough.... cough.... Hugh?)
I guess I was not clear on that.................counter clock wise.
langheldphoto
XS650 Enthusiast
Thank you sir. Going to try it now that I am off work. Fingers crossed
langheldphoto
XS650 Enthusiast
Well that didnt work either. Anyone want to buy a 1979 special?
something is clearly out of alignment because there should be adequate clearance with a generous tolerance. I think the only way you are going to be able to find out what is rubbing and where is to use some ' Engineer's Marking blue'.
Its a dye that Engineers use to see where unwanted friction or contact wear is occurring.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Stuarts-Micrometer-Engineers-Marking-Blue-Tube-/271163844645?pt=UK_Measuring_Tools_Levels&hash=item3f229fe825
You need to paint the blue dye on every part of the kick start assembly, the inside surfaces of the case where the kickstart shaft enters the engine and also around the hole on the inside of the case where the oil seal is . Anywhere that the kickstart shaft and mechanism could come into contact with and then completely reassemble the kickstart and cover .
Operate the kickstart a few times with your hand (assisting when the return spring doesn't work) then carefully take it all apart again and check with a strong light and magnifying glass . You should be able to see where the blue dye has been worn off where any parts have been in contact.
Any uneven wear indicated by the blue should tell you where the problem lies (.PS wear gloves)
The shaft could be bent, the hole in the cover could be out of alignment with the hole in the engine block (non original cover) The mating face of the cover could have been skimmed to remove casting flaws , scratches or previous gaskets . The cover could have been damaged in an accident. The wrong thickness of washers used on the shaft assembly ,
or the bush in the cover could now be out of alignment where the crack is .All sorts of reasons
I take it you are lubing the complete assembly adequately when testing it yes ?
Its a dye that Engineers use to see where unwanted friction or contact wear is occurring.
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Stuarts-Micrometer-Engineers-Marking-Blue-Tube-/271163844645?pt=UK_Measuring_Tools_Levels&hash=item3f229fe825
You need to paint the blue dye on every part of the kick start assembly, the inside surfaces of the case where the kickstart shaft enters the engine and also around the hole on the inside of the case where the oil seal is . Anywhere that the kickstart shaft and mechanism could come into contact with and then completely reassemble the kickstart and cover .
Operate the kickstart a few times with your hand (assisting when the return spring doesn't work) then carefully take it all apart again and check with a strong light and magnifying glass . You should be able to see where the blue dye has been worn off where any parts have been in contact.
Any uneven wear indicated by the blue should tell you where the problem lies (.PS wear gloves)
The shaft could be bent, the hole in the cover could be out of alignment with the hole in the engine block (non original cover) The mating face of the cover could have been skimmed to remove casting flaws , scratches or previous gaskets . The cover could have been damaged in an accident. The wrong thickness of washers used on the shaft assembly ,
or the bush in the cover could now be out of alignment where the crack is .All sorts of reasons
I take it you are lubing the complete assembly adequately when testing it yes ?
Just took some shots of an 82 kicker, for comparison purposes I guess.
Note there is a washer/bearing outboard of the snap ring.
Sorry but the cover has gone on to a new home already
Note there is a washer/bearing outboard of the snap ring.
Sorry but the cover has gone on to a new home already
Do you mean that the shaft did not move inward as you rotated CCW?
Here is another way to trial fit the shaft. Each time you fit the shaft you say it goes fully inward. OK, do that (with the spring hooked at the anchor point) and measure how far the the end of the shaft is away from the engine case (for reference). Now, unhook the spring from the anchor point. Try rotating the shaft (no spring tension) through a full 360 degrees, while pushing inward on the shaft. You should find a rotary postion where the shaft moves inward. Thats the rotary position you need to be in, plus the spring must be pre-tensioned. You could measure again to compare to the first measurement.
Looked at the video again it looks like he is installing it with the sector facing up, shouldn't it face down and towards the back?
I just don't know Gary. I described how I installed my kick starter shaft. I remember when I installed mine, it took a few trys before I figured out how it worked. It's actually quite simple once you have done it a few times. I'm out of ideas
I would try tapping the bushing in more from the inside on the cover. Maybe the heating you gave it allowed the bushing to drop out a little. Mine actually had excess in/out play to the shaft. It didn't have that extra washer outside of the clip that Gary mentioned so I added one.
Brian902
XS650 Junkie
Here is another view with some nice clear pictures. More of a repair job, but always helpful to have lots of pics.
http://thexscafedotcom.wordpress.com/2011/01/11/xs650-kick-start/
http://thexscafedotcom.wordpress.com/2011/01/11/xs650-kick-start/
650rmw
XS650 Member
Is it possible to have the kick starter oil seal installed to far and putting pressure on the shaft?
langheldphoto
XS650 Enthusiast
wow guys thank you for all pitching in on this issue. God I love this forum!!! I am out of town until this Thursday morning or I would go try all of the things you guys have told me. But just to reiterate, the whole thing worked before I ever took the clutch cover off. I am thinking that my problem is just the fact that the case is cracked... I just didnt want to have to replace it because the powder coat and a little jb weld should be enough to keep the oil from leaking. But alas, I suppose I will have to just get a new cover and have it powder coated... This time being sure not to crack it...
RG, yes the shaft went in fully, but honestly it went in exactly the same amount as when I used the zip tie. However, it did have more tension on the spring so the return was definately stronger. Still not enough to return with the cover was on, but definitely more ummph to it.
Anyone live in the Birmingham AL area with an extra cover they want to let me borrow? Ill be up that way until Thursday
Once again thanks for all the replies and effort in helping me solve this problem.
RG, yes the shaft went in fully, but honestly it went in exactly the same amount as when I used the zip tie. However, it did have more tension on the spring so the return was definately stronger. Still not enough to return with the cover was on, but definitely more ummph to it.
Anyone live in the Birmingham AL area with an extra cover they want to let me borrow? Ill be up that way until Thursday
Once again thanks for all the replies and effort in helping me solve this problem.
langheldphoto
XS650 Enthusiast
Hey guys I Just wanted to post that I have resolved the problem. After all of the headaches I had with the kickstart the problem was the small crack in the clutch cover. I bought another one and tried it out, bam fully functioning kick starter. It is amazing the incredibly tight tolerances these bikes were built to. Now all I have to do is put on my HHB PMA, finish my small amount of wiring, and figure out why my dang brakes wont build pressure...
Thanks again for the huge amount of help that everyone contributed to this issue. And for the record, the zip tie trick works perfectly provided your clutch cover doesnt have a miniscule crack in it lol.
Thanks again guys. Hopefully she will be running by this weekend and I can post some outdoors pictures of her, but if I have learned anything from this process it is patience haha.
Thanks again for the huge amount of help that everyone contributed to this issue. And for the record, the zip tie trick works perfectly provided your clutch cover doesnt have a miniscule crack in it lol.
Thanks again guys. Hopefully she will be running by this weekend and I can post some outdoors pictures of her, but if I have learned anything from this process it is patience haha.
blackapache
blind leading the blind
im having similar problems this info has been a life saver!
