Help please another noob with clutch issues

langheldphoto

langheldphoto

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(Now with Video) Help please another noob with clutch issues

hey guys, i have so far been a lurker on this forum but i guess now that i need some help i should introduce myself. I have recently gotten a 79 xs650 special from a friend. I will be posting a build thread shortly.

I got the engine working before I dug into tearing this thing down, and now i am but a few hours away from being finished and i have run into problems. Namely the kickstart will not spring back when the clutch cover is installed. Believe me i have searched and searched for a solution before posting so please don't flame on me. It returns fine when the cover is off but sticks when the cover is on. My question is when you do the zip tie trick on the spring are you supposed to wind it once or twice?

Also the clutch cable when installed is quite hard to pull. I have cleaned and lubed (haha) the cable already, looked for kinks/ cable fray and still it difficult to pull. Its not ungodly difficult but still not as smooth as I would like. Also when the left engine cover is on and the clutch cable installed i have no compression on the kickstart (removed the electric start). Once again i have read many threads concerning this topic and again to no avail.:banghead::banghead:

Please dont flame me, just help. It will be appreciated!!! Help a college kid get his ride going! Thanks in advance.

Britt
 
Last edited:
langheldphoto said:
hey guys, i have so far been a lurker on this forum but i guess now that i need some help i should introduce myself. I have recently gotten a 79 xs650 special from a friend. I will be posting a build thread shortly.

I got the engine working before I dug into tearing this thing down, and now i am but a few hours away from being finished and i have run into problems. Namely the kickstart will not spring back when the clutch cover is installed. Believe me i have searched and searched for a solution before posting so please don't flame on me. It returns fine when the cover is off but sticks when the cover is on. My question is when you do the zip tie trick on the spring are you supposed to wind it once or twice?

Also the clutch cable when installed is quite hard to pull. I have cleaned and lubed (haha) the cable already, looked for kinks/ cable fray and still it difficult to pull. Its not ungodly difficult but still not as smooth as I would like. Also when the left engine cover is on and the clutch cable installed i have no compression on the kickstart (removed the electric start). Once again i have read many threads concerning this topic and again to no avail.:banghead::banghead:

Please dont flame me, just help. It will be appreciated!!! Help a college kid get his ride going! Thanks in advance.

Britt
Click to expand...

Welcome.

I thought this sounded familiar....................here's a link to a recent thread:
http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?p=241428#post241428

The kickstarter shaft is a bit of a devil to install properly. It may appear to be installed but it really isn't. Read my answer in the link above. Practice with the cover off, to be sure you have the feel for it. It would have been useful if the poster in that thread had come back with a response as to whether he succeeded or not. I expect you will give us feedback.

I'm not familiar with the zip tie trick. The return spring gets wound only once as I recall.

OK, if you lose the ability to kickstart, that means you are dis-engaging the clutch. With the side cover installed, you must be able to unlock the worm gear and back out the adjusting screw. When the adjusting screw is backed out fully, the clutch is fully engaged and the kickstarter will turn over the engine. Turning the screw you should be able to feel resistance when you turn the screw inward. Go inward to the resistance point then back off 1/8 turn, lock the lock nut.

If you had the clutch apart, did you "index" the clutch on re-assembly?

Stiff clutch pull:
Have you cleaned and then regreased the worm gear? Make sure there are no cracks in the nylon part of the worm gear.

It may be time for a new clutch cable. My clutch is easy to pull, and I use an "E-Z Pull" cable sold by www.650central.com
 
RG... okay I tried what you said with the kicker and still no luck. I have deduced that the kicker works fine until i turn the top three allen bolts nearest the kick lever to their proper torque settings... Would it be possible to just use two clutch cover gaskets to space it properly?

This is the thread regarding the zip tie trick.http://www.xs650.com/forum/showthread.php?t=772
After reading and understanding how the kickstart works this method seems very valid however its just not working for me. Unless somehow the starter shaft reached what seems to be a seated position and then must be pushed another 1-2mm in? Havent even gotten around to checking on the clutch situation yet. No I never actually removed the clutch just the clutch cover. Could my clutch problems be caused by the fact that there isnt any oil in the bike at the moment? or should it work smoothly with or without oil? Thanks again for all your input!!:thumbsup:
 
If your clutch pack was new and u have no oil in it that is your issue. It is dragging because the plates are dry

Posted via Mobile
 
ClOckwOrk said:
If your clutch pack was new and u have no oil in it that is your issue. It is dragging because the plates are dry

Posted via Mobile
Click to expand...

There is meant to be drag (drive) through the clutch when kicking, otherwise your kickstarter is going to "freewheel" as already described. As RG has suggested back of your clutch adjuster, including the one at the lever. Then try reassembling the Rh cover, it should all fit together nicely - do it properly and1 gasket is all you need. Don't pull the clutch assy apart if you don't need too.
 
hotdog, when you say to back off of both adjusters doesnt that mean that the clutch line will have more "slack" in it? and would it be the same as doing what you mentioned to just have the clutch disconnected entirely?

This is getting really frustrating. I bought an Athena gasket kit set from mikes so the gasket shouldnt be the problem right? The oem gasket that was on it did seem to be slightly thicker...

ugh...
 
langheldphoto said:
hotdog, when you say to back off of both adjusters doesnt that mean that the clutch line will have more "slack" in it? and would it be the same as doing what you mentioned to just have the clutch disconnected entirely?

This is getting really frustrating. I bought an Athena gasket kit set from mikes so the gasket shouldnt be the problem right? The oem gasket that was on it did seem to be slightly thicker...

ugh...
Click to expand...

Working on old motorcycles can be challenging...............that's why we love doing it. Once you solve this problem, you will feel good that no machine can beat you:D

Your problem has nothing to do with gaskets or lack of oil in the engine.

Yes, you want to back off both adjusters; the more slack the better, just to see if you can get things working correctly. Here's a suggestion. Remove the left engine cover. Now you just have the clutch pushrod sitting there, with no force applied to it. The clutch is now fully engaged to allow the kickstarter to work.

Do you have the pushrod installed correctly? One end is smaller than the other end. The small end must be on the outer end, i.e. the small end is the end that fits into the worm gear. Do you have the ball bearing in the worm gear?

Another thing to check. With the pushrod pushed inward as far as you can with your finger, measure the amount protruding from the engine case. It should be 1 and 15/16". This check
is to make sure you don't have 2 ball bearings at the far end of the pushrod.

Yes, as Hotdog said, should be no need to take the clutch apart. Since the right cover is off, you should confirm that the clutch index marks are alined....................you never know what a PO may have screwed up.
 
Exactly - by either backing off the adjusters or completely removing the LH engine cover as suggested by RG achieves the same outcome - ensuring the clutch is fully engaged (which will allow the engine to be kick-started).
Now try to install your RH engine cover, once it is installed see if the engine will kick over.
Doing this will let you know if you have either a clutch issue - if the kick start still freewheels after it has been installed correctly and the engine still will not kick over.
Or a kick-start incorrect installation issue.

What you need to understand is - if there is no free-play in the clutch adjustment or the clutch cable is pulled in, the result is that the xs650 engine can not be turned over as the clutch will now be dis-engaged.

We are trying to help you by eliminating the possibility of the clutch being able to be disengeged during the starting process - this will point you in a clearer direction to resolve your issue.


langheldphoto said:
hotdog, when you say to back off of both adjusters doesnt that mean that the clutch line will have more "slack" in it? and would it be the same as doing what you mentioned to just have the clutch disconnected entirely?

This is getting really frustrating. I bought an Athena gasket kit set from mikes so the gasket shouldnt be the problem right? The oem gasket that was on it did seem to be slightly thicker...

ugh...
Click to expand...
 
RG and Hotdog, thank you both so much for all the help. So to be as clear as I can be about the issue allow me to elaborate...

Both of the engine covers are off. With the left side(or chain cover off) AND the clutch cover off the kickstart works perfectly.

Now with the left side cover OFF and the clutch cover ON the kickstart will still turn the engine over but it will not return unless the 3 bolts above the kickstart lever are slightly loosened... (This is where I have been scratching my head) As soon as I properly torque any of the 3 bolts down the kickstart will not return. The other bolts on the cover do nothing to keep it from working properly.

And Thanks again sooooo much to you guys, I am just so anxious to get this thing working because the weather down here has been UNBELIEVABLY GORGEOUS!!! And it seems like it will stay that way for a while. I JUST WANT TO RIDE!!!! HAHA :bike::bike::bike::bike:
 
langheldphoto said:
RG and Hotdog, thank you both so much for all the help. So to be as clear as I can be about the issue allow me to elaborate...

Both of the engine covers are off. With the left side(or chain cover off) AND the clutch cover off the kickstart works perfectly.

Now with the left side cover OFF and the clutch cover ON the kickstart will still turn the engine over but it will not return unless the 3 bolts above the kickstart lever are slightly loosened... (This is where I have been scratching my head) As soon as I properly torque any of the 3 bolts down the kickstart will not return. The other bolts on the cover do nothing to keep it from working properly.

And Thanks again sooooo much to you guys, I am just so anxious to get this thing working because the weather down here has been UNBELIEVABLY GORGEOUS!!! And it seems like it will stay that way for a while. I JUST WANT TO RIDE!!!! HAHA :bike::bike::bike::bike:
Click to expand...

Well, I've run out of ideas. As Hotdog said, its time to find a good exploded view of the kickstart mechanism. It would seem that its not assembled correctly. Sometimes, PO's have a nasty habit of leaving out or installing extra parts, just as a kind of cruel game.

You lucky dude to have that nice weather. Yeah, its winter up here, but nevertheless, sometimes we just like to sit out by the snow banks, and breathe in that fresh air:D.
 

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I have never tried the zip tie method on the kick start. I found the way the book calls for installing the kick start to work find.
Page 80 in the Clymer book.
Leo
 
RG, Hotdog- thanks again for all the help. I did check the diagram of the kickstart assembly (found on this forum :) ) and saw that there did seem to be an extra shim in the system. View attachment 1081 ( i hope that hyperlink works) As shown in that diagram there should be only ONE #10 shim in the kickstart assembly and it should be held in place by the #11 part. However when I removed the clutch cover there was an extra #10 shim in front of the the #11 retaining clip.

Now you have to understand also that the kickstart worked fine until I removed the clutch cover to check the clutch's condition. I even used the kickstart to start the engine before I tore into the bike, so I am still perplexed as to what I did to cause this issue and if in fact the additional #10 shim should be used. The kickstart binds whether or not that shim is put back in like it was originally so im just stumped :banghead::banghead::banghead:

On a side note: RG that is a TON of snow!!! I have never in my life experienced anything like that!! Just yesterday I was out kayak fishing on the gulf of Mexico in a t-shirt shorts and flip flops and i still broke a sweat!!!
 
What manual do you have? If you don't have one at all then I suggest getting one.
There are places you can download them. biker.net is one. I like the Yamaha factory books, they can be found on Ebay. I have them from the 70- 80 models, as well as downloads for the 81 up bikes. I also have the Clymers and Haynes books.
To install the kick shaft you push it far enough to get the spring on the anchor point.
Slip the kick clip into it's notch in the case.
Now rotate the shaft 1/2 to 3/4 turn counter clockwise while pushing in on the shaft. At this point the shaft will slip in a fully.
Useing the kick start lever to turn the shaft works. Just be careful pulling the kicker back off. Don't want to pull it back out.
At this point the spring has the right amount of preload to return the kick lever.
Leo
 
So guys it has been however long and I still have not figured out this damn kickstart issue. Turns out I did not need the oil seal afterall... Fuuuuuuuu!!!! I have checked, re-checked and re-re-checked the assembly of kickstart mechanism, its installation, and the different methods by which the kickstart assembly are "suggested" to be installed. Now remember everyone that kickstart returns just fine when the case is off and when the case is on but the 3 screws above the kickstart are not tightened at all... If any of the screws are even partially tightened it binds up and will not return. The only thing that I could possibly come up with as to why it will not come back is that there is a small crack in the case near where the kickstart shaft comes out of the case.

So guys the question i pose to you is... wtf do I do? Could this crack be what is causing the shaft to bind? I really dont feel like just throwing more money at this problem without knowing what is actually the problem.:banghead: I JUST WANT TO :bike::bike::bike:!!!!!!
 
ttwp.gif


We would like to see pics of the kick start inside and a shot of the inside of the cover.
Did you figure out the clutch issue?
 
Gary I will most definitely get some pictures posted for you guys tomorrow. I havent even looked at the clutch yet. I just want to get one thing done at a time. Will post pics soon please stay tuned. Thanks for the quick response.
 
Here is my video of the problems I am having. Hopefully this is a good enough explanation of the problems I am having. Pictures are at the end of the video. I apologize for the video's length but I wanted to be as thorough as possible. PLEASE HELP!!! haha

 

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