Help with Clutch issues

[OldBlue]

Hello!

I am a brand new motorcyclist and this 650xs is my first bike, its name is Ol' Blue.

I bought it and it needed some work (was shifting weird). The main issue is that the tangs for the gear shifter arm, weren't properly spaced with the star gear that control shifting. I took down the clutch and adjusted the bolt. I believe all is working now in that department. However, when I went to put everything back together I believe Ive done something wrong. The clutch level is slack and doesnt feel like its engaging properly. Ive attached a video and pictures of the assembly.

Things I've observed:
1) There is a small amount of play with the clutch basket. (See video of me moving it back and forth) Is this amount of travel normal?

2) The clutch level, when fully squeezed, only pushes out the pin 1/4" (see pics of before and after squeezing the clutch). Is this the normal amount of travel?

3) My clutch plates look rusty. Should these be replaced?

4) Before disassembly, I was able to squeeze the clutch and the plates moved in and out, after reassembly the clutch feels slack and does not move the plates. Any suggestions on where I went wrong?


*edit* still attempting to upload video.

 

[weekendrider]

Welcome to the site Ol'Blue.
http://www.xs650.com/threads/xs650-clutch.143/page-3
Check your parts and the way they stack compared to post #49 in the link.
In that same thread you will find specs for the fiber plate thickness so you can check them.
Also the basket and pressure plate are indexed. Again explained in that thread.
XSLeo suggests to file the rough/sharp edges off the metal plates to ease operation.
The plates are stamped out so one side is smooth the other not so much. Hang a fingernail on the sides and you can see what I mean.
You might also rough up the metal plates by using a figure 8 pattern on fine sand paper.
There isn't much separation of the plates when everything is together that is what makes them hard to push around in gear with the clutch pulled.
But adjusted correctly and lubed you should have an easy clutch pull for riding.

 

[OldBlue]

The edges of the clutch basket have already been filed. The spacing felt correct before disassembly and everything was functioning normally. The T-shaped pin that sits on top of the ball bearing inside the clutch, how does this actuation move the clutch plates back and forth?

 

[weekendrider]

It pushes against the pressure plate allowing space between plates. I get almost 2mm of pressure plate travel IIRC
I wasn't talking about filing the fingers of the basket. But the teeth and groves on the metal plates. .

 

[5twins]

Your clutch plates aren't rusty. That's remnants of the glue they used to attach the cork layer to the metal base plate. There are a series of balls and rods between the worm gear on the left cover where the cable attaches and the clutch pressure plate. When you pull the lever, it rotates the worm and that pushes in on the rods and balls. They push that mushroom shaped fitting out against the pressure plate and that allows the other plates to separate. The parts drawing shows some of the balls but not all. There is one in the worm gear. It is part of the assembly so that's probably why it doesn't show on the diagram. It is held in the worm by some crimps around the hole. Over time and use, those crimps wear away and the ball can fall out, not while operating but when you remove the left cover. This is what may have happened to you. The ball is 5/16" so if you lose it, you suddenly have all that extra play in the lever when you put it back together.

 

[OldBlue]

@5twins That is a really good suggestion. I took off the left motor cover to check for a crack the other week and I may have lost a ball. Ill take it back off and check to see if its there. Thanks for pointing me in this direction. Also its good to hear my plates arent rusty!

@Weekend Rider oh! Gotcha, thats not a bad idea. Ill take a look.

Thank you all!

 

[OldBlue]

I just uploaded the video of the play in the basket and the distance my clutch plate pusher moves

 

[5twins]

That looks like too much play between your inner and outer baskets. I think you have something assembled wrong or are missing spacer washers. Refer to that post in the link above that WER gave you. It gives diagrams of the proper amount and position for the spacer washers and the radial bearing. Your pushrod and ball assembly could be fine. It may just be this improper basket assembly.

If you do want to check if the ball is missing from the worm gear assembly, remove the left cover and remove the adjuster screw from the worm. If the ball is missing, you'll be able to see right through it.

 

[OldBlue]

The first ball is there. Im not sure about the second. Ill take the whole thing down again and reassemble the basket.
Where might I be able to find a new winged washer for that huge bolt? Having to take it on and off has caused the wings to break off.

 

[5twins]

I'm pretty sure MikesXS sells them, but ordering just that one little item, the shipping will kill you. Best you look the bike over and get any other little items you may need. There are some general maintenance items you should keep on hand. Things like oil drain plug sealing washers, oil filter cover gaskets, points and condensers if you still use them, spare alternator brushes if the charging system is still stock. You look to still have the rubber washers under the 4 outside acorn nuts on top of the head. They cause those acorn nuts to constantly come loose and should be swapped out for copper or brass washers. Mike's has all that stuff.

 

[OldBlue]

I think a lot of this has already been replaced. I do need a new cover, it cracked on the bottom and leaks oil like a river. It was rephased and rebuilt with most tweaks done to it. Im going to swap out the kick starter stator for the hugh hand built stator mod. No more need for a battery.

Again, i am brand new to this, so I apologize in advance if I sound like an idiot.

 

[OldBlue]

Morning everyone.

After my last post, I found i crushed the sh*t out of my thrust bearing during install. Thats where all that play with the basket came from. I have gotten a new thrust bearing and installed it. I took pics along the way of some problems I found.


The above two images are the new thrust bearing and washer. The thick washer was stuck to the back side of the clutch basket. Just wanted to show everyone how I assembled it and ask if I put it in facing the wrong way.

The next two pictures are the washer between the clutch case housing and this sprialy cut cuff that slides over the shaft. As you can see there is a good amount of rub off between the two surfaces and I am wondering what I should do to fix this. I scrapped off a bunch of schmutz on the right image.



As well, the 6x clutch springs, they should be between 6-8 Ftlbs on the torque wrench correct? I cant find the spec in the Clymer Manual

 

[TwoManyXS1Bs]

The wear/contact ring on the end of your 'spiraly' bushing doesn't look right. And, the thick washer in your last pic looks damaged.

If you study 5twin's pic of the clutch washer assembly sequence, you'll notice that the clutch basket (and radial bearing) is sandwiched between two 2mm thick washers (marked in blue), with full contact on the bushing's ends. Those thick washers need to be undamaged, flat, and with smooth surfaces, so that they'll provide proper running clearances (about 0.002") for the basket's ID.

 

[OldBlue]

The wear/contact ring on the end of your 'spiraly' bushing doesn't look right. And, the thick washer in your last pic looks damaged.

If you study 5twin's pic of the clutch washer assembly sequence, you'll notice that the clutch basket (and radial bearing) is sandwiched between two 2mm thick washers (marked in blue), with full contact on the bushing's ends. Those thick washers need to be undamaged, flat, and with smooth surfaces, so that they'll provide proper running clearances (about 0.002") for the basket's ID.

View attachment 88070

Thank you for the info. It looks pretty damaged. Problem is, its really on there. On both ends. The clutch basket has one attached to it and it doesnt look too too bad, but the inner most one is quite veritably fked. Its on there and I dont know how to safely remove it.

Ive replaced the orange and washer so far. Do you think I would be able to find these washers at a hardware store or just mikesxs -.-

 

[5twins]

That inner "blue" washer should slide right off the shaft, as should the "red" one under it. It's probably been deformed somehow. You might be able to carefully pry it off if you can get under the outer edges with a screwdriver. It is still available from Yamaha but they highly value it. It cost a bit over $9, lol. Maybe you can scrounge a good used one somewhere. It was used on many different Yamaha models .....

http://www.boats.net/parts/detail/yamaha/Y-170-16164-00-00.html

Yes, the clutch spring screws get torqued like a normal M6 bolt, 6 to 8 ft/lbs. I use 80 in/lbs (6 2/3 ft/lbs), not only here but on all the M6 fasteners on the bike. There's no need to use the max value and you risk stripping bolt holes in the alloy if you do.

 

[OldBlue]

That inner "blue" washer should slide right off the shaft, as should the "red" one under it. It's probably been deformed somehow. You might be able to carefully pry it off if you can get under the outer edges with a screwdriver. It is still available from Yamaha but they highly value it. It cost a bit over $9, lol. Maybe you can scrounge a good used one somewhere. It was used on many different Yamaha models .....

http://www.boats.net/parts/detail/yamaha/Y-170-16164-00-00.html

Yes, the clutch spring screws get torqued like a normal M6 bolt, 6 to 8 ft/lbs. I use 80 in/lbs (6 2/3 ft/lbs), not only here but on all the M6 fasteners on the bike. There's no need to use the max value and you risk stripping bolt holes in the alloy if you do.

I was attempting to pry gentle with the screwdriver but the washer began to deform. Worst case scenario, its probably also gaked up the red washer behind it too. Best bet would probably be to find a junk one somewhere and get all the washers I need at once?

 

[OldBlue]

That inner "blue" washer should slide right off the shaft, as should the "red" one under it. It's probably been deformed somehow. You might be able to carefully pry it off if you can get under the outer edges with a screwdriver. It is still available from Yamaha but they highly value it. It cost a bit over $9, lol. Maybe you can scrounge a good used one somewhere. It was used on many different Yamaha models .....

http://www.boats.net/parts/detail/yamaha/Y-170-16164-00-00.html

Yes, the clutch spring screws get torqued like a normal M6 bolt, 6 to 8 ft/lbs. I use 80 in/lbs (6 2/3 ft/lbs), not only here but on all the M6 fasteners on the bike. There's no need to use the max value and you risk stripping bolt holes in the alloy if you do.

Morning Gentlemen,

I went to boats.net and they only have one of those washers avaialble. Is there another site that sells them? I checked feeBay and they have 1975 washers and newer. I have a 1974 motor and am wondering if they will take the same washers.

Also, when the basket is reassembled, should it be fairly tight after that 85 ft/lb bolt gets locked on there? it feels really tight and the basket barely turns at all

 

[peanut]

you may find this video helpful. I made it when I was assembling my clutch for the first time .

Since building the clutch I have found that it is best to have more clearance behind the clutch pack than 1mm. I would recommend 2mm minimum and to achieve this you can fit 2x small washers against the bearing instead of 1. (part 1 on the sequence image) which will space your clutch basket off the crancase adequately and give plenty of clearance. This washer is a generic metric shim washer and can be bought at any bearing or shim washer retailer or on ebay . Just make sure you measure the ID and OD accurately