Ignition Help with new Banshee charging system

[KSAL]

Alright so i have a question that might be kind of dumb but im a noob so please be gentle. I did the banshee swap just as all the pictures had shown. Everything to a t. I followed the simple easy wiring diagram just hooked the 3 yellow wires out of the stator to to the new regulator i just got from from hugh. I hooked the red to the battery and the green to ground as it shows.

Now my bike wont start. I hit the electric start over and over and nothing. I know that stator is charging because i've been at it now for about 20 mins and its the battery isnt dead yet. So my question is i guess, when i unplugged the stock stator (2 plugs, one with 3 wires and the other with 6 wires) is there something im missing that needs power to start the bike that isn't getting it now??? Is there something within the ignition that was wired to the original stator??
Also for reference my bike ran like a top before i messed with it at all. It just didn't keep a charge.

 

[azman857]

Fuses good? You sure your battery is still charged? Any noises when button is pushed? Got a meter? What year is your ride? Research the useing "tech" and "search" tabs?. Not trying to beat you up, just getting info to work with.

 

[KSAL]

I'm pretty sure the fuses are good. Like I said, the bike ran like a champ before changing out the charging system. I pulled the spark plugs out and kept the wires on them and i don't see any spark when hitting the starter button.

I do have a volt meter, and its a 81 special II.

I've been up and down the tech section and searched ignition, timing, all that but most is for the changing out the ignition. Any ideas on how to diagnose the spark issue? Where to look to see if something is shorted out or not getting proper power supply?

 

[azman857]

Check the easy stuff first. All the wires still connected to their connector? Something I'm not sure of by your discription...when you hit the start button..is your engine turning over? When you were looking for sparks, the plugs were grounded(touching the engine or bare metal)? Otherwise the TCI will quit working..forever. It will stand some abuse but it is old.

 

[azman857]

With the meter, start going down the wires to where it should be. Turn your iggy system off between readings with the emergency shut off on rt switch group.

 

[KSAL]

OK! Done a bit more tearing down and there a piece on the stator cover with three wires coming out if it. I'm 99% sure it had something to do with reading the timing on the original rotor. The wires were orange, grey and black and connected to a plug with white/green, white/red, and black/white wires that all go to the ignition box.

Again i'm not a bike guru so how to i get the timing signal back to that ignition box to send the signal back to the plugs to fire? I hope this is understandable.
When i get back home later i will post pictures show it all.

 

[azman857]

Yeah that black oval thing is your timeing sensor. It has its own connector. Did you change rotors? Wait a second here. Banshee PMA! Your original iggy won't work now. Points,Pamco or Boyer is needed now. Your old Stator and rotor had the timing sensors for the TCI. With those gone, the black box under your battery carrier is usless. I went with the Pamco system and upgraded the coil and never looked back. Yes you have to add an ATU(Automatic timeing Unit) from the points system but so what. It's easy to install, won't cost an arm and a leg and works like a champ.

 

[KSAL]

Bingo!! Thats exactly what I was thinking. It just took me a little while to put all those pieces together. Sometimes its hard to know what you need when you don't know what it is you are even looking for. Thanks for all the help/ and advice!

 

[azman857]

Thats what we're here for.

 

[angus67]

get the pamco. easy instal (three wires) almost instant tech help from the man himself, and the advance parts are about fifty bucks. easy-peasy.

 

[KSAL]

What makes that Pamco kit on mikesxs 220? Or what don't I need out of that kit? After about 225 on my banshee Conversion I'm a little tapped for cash so would like to get by but not cheap out on crappy stuff for as resonable as possible.

 

[azman857]

about $100 for the Pamco, $83 for the ATU parts, $38 for the coil, $8 for the spark plug cap. Thats more than $219 for mike's 14-0902. I'm running a Pamco with the Ultimate coil and on my '80 and VERY pleased with it.Truely a "set and forget" set-up. Much less the a Boyer and way easier to maintain then points. Much more peace of mind than buying another 30 yr old used TCI. You will find those who will swear by or at for all systems. Choice is yours.

 

[pamcopete]

ksal,
You can use your stock coil and plug caps, but that will only save you $8. You are better off with the kit.

Once you get a working ignition system on the engine, be aware of the three things that can happen when you first start a new PM setup:

1. The voltage surges to 25+ volts because the regulator was not installed properly. This high voltage will fry the ignition system and most of the electrical system on the bike.
2. The alternator will not charge the battery.
3. The engine starts up immediately and everything works as it should.

So, I recommend that you connect the ignition system to an external battery that is not wired to the bikes electrical system for the initial startup. This will ensure that the engine will start and you can check the PM setup without frying the ignition. Even better, start the engine with the PM alternator disconnected so you can set the timing on the ignition and warm up the engine before you connect the PM. I also recommend that you wear safety glasses because if #1 above happens, it's possibly that the battery will boil violently and spray acid all over the place. You have to have a battery or capacitor connected to the alternator to stabilize the voltage , so you can't use that battery for the recommended separate ignition battery.

 

[Punkskalar]

Pete,

You know I love ya man, but so long as these folks wire up the regulator properly with solid connections, they won't have any of those problems... Most of the PMA problems stem from poor wiring connections... If the regulator isn't wired up properly, you are more likely to have LOW voltage (if only 2 of the 3 phases are making connection, etc..), I have yet to see HIGH Voltage come through the regulator and all of his connections SHOULD be at the battery or Cap, not before the regulator...

Hugh

 

[pamcopete]

punkskalar,

Well, I have had a couple of reports of high voltage with the type of regulator that has a separate black sense wire which is either left disconnected or grounded, both of which cause the regulator to "see" zero volts and therefore allow the full output from the alternator to go to the battery or capacitor and thence to the PAMCO, headlight etc frying every thing. I had one guy go through 3 PAMCO's before we figured out what was wrong. The headlight has a role in this as well, because if you have a "runaway" PM alternator, the voltage initially goes up as high as 17 or 18 volts with the headlight on, which is OK with the PAMCO, but that voltage soon burns out the headlight, and without the load from the headlight, the voltage then continues to climb to as high as 20 to 25 volts.

So, the problem may only be with the type of regulator that has a separate sense wire that is left disconnected.

Because the regulator for a PM alternator is a shunt to ground regulator, it is also important to have the headlight on above about 2,000 RPM because the system depends on the current for the headlight as part of the current that is shunted to ground for regulation. That is the way my CB450 is. In fact, the CB450 has an extra set of contacts in the headlight switch that disconnects two of the windings in the PM alternator when the headlight is off. I tried it with these contacts shorted so all the windings are in circuit with the headlight off and the regulator could not keep the voltage below 17 volts because it was designed to operate with the help of the current for the headlight.

So, I do have a little bit of experience with PM alternators, in this case it's the factory PM and regulator from Honda and even the Honda engineers had to work around the problem with a shunt type regulator. For instance, if the headlight burns out on the CB450, the battery gets fried because the little beast is high revving and you would end up riding home with 17 volts on the battery because the headlight is burned out!

So, it could be the same for PM alternators from bikes that have a headlight in the stock version. The load from the headlight is needed to help regulate the voltage. I would suggest looking at the wiring diagram for the stock bike to see if there is special compensation for the headlight being on or off, or in any event, always keep the headlight on.

 

[Punkskalar]

Ahhh, Yes... I forget about those regulators, thats why I only use the 5 wire ones

 

[pamcopete]

Ahhh, Yes... I forget about those regulators, thats why I only use the 5 wire ones

Well, even the foolproof 5 wire regulators can cause full output from the alternator and fry everything if the black ground wire is not connected because the shunt regulator simply shunts the current from the alternator to ground. This could happen if you mount the regulator to the battery box and connect the black wire to the battery box as well because the battery box is not grounded but is floating on its little rubber dough nuts. I would think that mounting the regulator to the battery box is common because the rectifier was there and it is a convenient place to mount the regulator in it's place.

The point here is that you are really doing a major mod to the electrical system when you do the PM mod and anything can happen, so that is why I suggest running the ignition from a separate battery until you are sure that the PM is working properly. It's even more important to use a separate battery with a capacitor setup because the engine won't start if the alternator does not produce any current.